SoCap talks with Devon, Dr. Liz and Nancy
From Uber to Wells Fargo, today’s business news is filled with stories of poor corporate leadership and governance. SoCap co-founder and chief visionary officer Devon Kerns sits down with Nancy Holmes (PHR, CCP) of Newman Holmes Consulting, LLC, and Dr. Liz Selzer, founder and CEO of VP Mentoring Initiatives — two 20 plus-year veterans of the human resources and leadership development field — to discuss what leadership is, what it isn’t, and what makes a good leader.
Dr. Liz, as she prefers to be called, starts off the podcast with the premise that leadership is influence. It’s not about standing in front of the group and barking orders. It’s about standing in the middle of the group, gaining an understanding of individuals’ strengths, and influencing their decisions and actions, so that the group may move forward, as one.
Too many companies are content putting people in a box, and often it’s like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Good leaders are able to identify team members’ strengths and weaknesses and empower them to play to their strengths.
The gang goes on to cover the importance of onboarding and, almost as vital, offboarding, when it becomes obvious that a team member is not in the best position for his strengths. And, of course, any discussion on good leadership would incomplete without talking about Richard Branson, the epitome of strong leadership.
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Welcome back to SoCap Talks, helping innovators build tomorrow, today. Now here’s your hosts, Devon Kerns and Eric Sutfin.
Devon: Today’s topic is around leadership.
*laughter* yay, my favorite topic honestly
Devon: Um, in terms of leadership I know there’s a lot happening in the news with poor leadership. And I think it’s a great way to start out in terms of what is and what isn’t leadership. So out of curiosity coming from you Dr. Liz and and maybe share a little bit about your background and why, um this is such a passionate topic and and I mean you’ve worked with entities like NASA and the air force around this topic, so what what are you really, who are you and what are you really
Dr. Liz: *laughing* Who am I?
Devon: Seeing in terms of leadership out there?
Dr. Liz: Well, um, just my experience of developing leaders now for probably over 20 years, that question ‘what is leadership are leaders made? Are they born? Is it as simple as the definition that leadership is influence?’ When I worked with a group of young women, leaders, a lot of them, they a lot of them well they were mothers and people who were, um, maybe not in a typical leadership position, but I still felt like they had influence and I wanted them to step like take one step further in their influence. I couldn’t use the ‘L’ word, that is, leadership…
Devon: Oh.
Dr. Liz: because um that kind of freaked people out. But I-I my personal belief, and I hope I have some disagreement here cuz I like a good discussion, I think leadership is influence. I think we lead, you can be a stay at home mom and you can still lead. You can lead your children, you can lead, uh the people around you, your friends, your family, by the way that you influence them. And I believe each person has unique areas where they can contribute to that kind of influencing people to do things and to model behavior and to make a difference.
Devon: So does that also mean that if I was leading, if I also had influence, any type of influence, if I was an influencer if I was a Instagram model, which check out Devon Kerns at, no no I’m kidding *laughter* um if I was an Instagram model and now I have a level of influence does that automatically put me in a position of leadership therefore I can step up good or bad because it’s around influence?
Dr. Liz: Well, yes because I think leadership is l-leadership is influence and it can be good or bad. I mean I think you can I mean, gosh one of the best leaders in history, and I hate to use him is Hitler, I mean he lead, he lead. And he started a world war, so
Devon: Yeah
Dr. Liz: Um, and obviously he wasn’t necessarily that good of a person especially if you study him very much but uh, I don’t know. Nancy, what do you think?
Nancy: No I, I have to agree I think influence is the key component of leadership, um, good or bad um, you see people in positions that once they get that following, whether it’s good or bad, they can sway and influence people to either rise and join into their, um philosophies and their uh, um you know just who they are as a as a leader. Um, I actually studied um Hitler not too long ago having been to Munich, and how he got so many followers was because he tapped into intrinsic values that they needed, one,
Dr. Liz: Mmm hmm
Nancy: and they were extremely, you know, poverty stricken after World War I. And so he was able to pull those people together, um by the way he influenced their thought process of how they were going to get out of that issue. So,
Devon: So, influence is not, so in todays world it’s really interesting because a lot of people that might be listening to this assume that influence is the level of people that know you.
Nancy: Mmm.
Devon: *clears throat* Versus influence, according to what you’re saying, is being able to influence the emotion over some belief system or intrinsic value system, and being able to have influence over an individual…
Dr. Liz: Mmm hmm
Devon: By invoking that emotion and then getting them to align according to your belief system.
Nancy: Exactly.
Dr. Liz: I think that’s a good distinction.
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Dr. Liz: One of the reasons that I really stand by the leadership is influence piece is that one of my philosophies when working in a social capital industry is, I believe that all people should be developed, instead of just that top, you know your, your top performers. And I think that companies are much stronger in their social capital and have stronger cultures when they develop their whole, you know when they, they try at least I mean there will always be people will dig their heels in and don’t want to be developed and that’s on them. But, I think, especially with the younger generations, they want to be developed.
Devon: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: And they’re trying to move, I say up the ladder I think we’re getting away from hierarchical structures anyway, but uh I think, you know as they try to develop personally and professionally, they, it, you know a lot of them are very young and a lot of them really are just entering the workforce and, I don’t think we, we have to realize that they have a tremendous amount of influence.
Devon: Mmm hmm.
Dr. Liz: And if we can really tap into that I think it really makes our company stronger.
Nancy: Mmm hmm, mmm hmm.
Devon: Yeah that’s powerful, it’s it reminds me of a conversation we just had yesterday and we were talking about this with the um, rest of the SoCap leaders in our company, we were uh, sitting down with someone who’s young in our organization and, um uh actually two people, one, Dylan standing over here and we had a great conversation with him and he’s totally owning the leadership and the idea of stepping into that and then we’ve got a 21 almost 22 year old on board with us who, um we start, you know it’s an evolutionary process when you’re working with people. And to have an open and fluid company, to be able to watch where people are gonna thrive and where they’re dying,
Nancy: Mmm hmm
Devon: You and when we looked at this particular individual it was such a great and tremendous leadership um, ability he’s somebody that at 20 years old or 19 years old spoke at the White House.
Dr. Liz: Wow.
Devon: Right, and he spoke around things that he’s passionate about. He’s an adopted, uh kid and he has this passion for working with at risk youth. And he’s got this voice. We ended up putting him in a position where he loves connecting with people, he loves re- outreach.
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Devon: So we put him in the world of outreach, and then we also put the title of “bisdev” on him, and could he be a business development leader. And the reality is, he’s so great at outreach and he’s so great at inspiring and invoking emotion, but there was a disconnect there and this is that evolutionary and fluid process that we have to go through I think in companies today where, if you’ve got this young person in your group, and he’s actually not even a millennial he’s a gen-Z, if you’ve got this young person in your group and you’ve got a fluid and open transparent conversation around where could we put you, where do you fit in this organization? We realized he is great at leading and invoking emotion and inspiring people, but he’s not so great on the closing and connecting pace.
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Devon: And when you can look at that, that doesn’t really fit into “bisdev” but then we talked to him ‘what do you really want to do?’ And now he’s leading a movement with our organization and, and really gonna sit down and pitch to the entire organization on November 7th what he’s going to accomplish in a 12 month period, which just happens to be 2018 of November 7th 2018, where he’s gonna pitch to us what he’s gonna do in the next 12 months to inspire 18-21 year olds to vote…
Nancy: Mmm ooo.
Devon: In the Colorado election for governor. Which is the smaller turnout of any other, other election right?
Dr. Liz: Right.
Devon: So, he’s taking his influence, he’s taking his passion for evoking emotion and deciding to step into a leadership role with an intention and using his skill set instead of being in a box.
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Devon: And had we kept him in the box he wouldn’t have thrived.
Nancy: Right. Well and I think that’s what’s so important about any organization, um whether it’s you know this or stay at home mom is working within student volunteer programs, is really recognizing and understanding where people’s strengths are, where their
Dr. Liz: Yes
Nancy: Passions are, and helping them to thrive in that space, versus the other way around
Devon: Mmm hmm
Nancy: Where we’ve got this box we need somebody to fit into, well you know you’ve got 3 out of the 5 so we’re gonna force you in there anyway. Um, really identifying those strengths, strengths and leadership skills in somebody, um, I-I think is just huge. Another, kind of the flip side of that is promoting somebody because they’re so technically talented is, say a senior accountant *laughter* and they want to continue with their career growth and so, they’re promoted to the supervisor. Well, managing people versus crunching numbers are 2
Devon: Mmm hmm.
Nancy: Completely different skill sets.
Devon: Yeah.
Nancy: And, are you setting this person up for failure if you don’t groom them before they even step into that role?
Dr. Liz: It’s funny, we I just worked with a a company that, well not just worked, a little while ago, within the cable industry, and you have these cable techs that are just rocking it and doing so well, and then they get promoted to management and they don’t know the first thing about how to do that
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Dr. Liz: And how to lead those teams because the skill set is really really very different.
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Dr. Liz: And that’s why I love what you said about identifying strengths. Let’s identify those people who actually have the strengths in the leading of teams.
Devon: Mmm hmm.
Dr. Liz: You can still influence other ways I mean you can be a model as a cable tech and still lead an influence, and that’s fine. But, I saw it in sales too, and you probably have Devon, where you get the best sales guy, he’s bringing in all the numbers, and all of a sudden you promote him to be sales manager and they don’t do that well because that’s not the skill set that they have.
Devon: That’s right.
Dr. Liz: And so, I we-we developed um, some just very basic things to help people step into that kind of managerial leadership position that we hope is super practical that everybody can do. Uh, if they get put in that management position and hopefully it will help them develop but I, you know there are just certain people that do better in those situations than others.
Nancy: Absolutely, and I think that as a team for SoCap to have somebody like Dr. Liz on staff to, um help with that before you push somebody into a position.
Dr. Liz: Yeah.
Nancy: That they’re not prepared for.
Dr. Liz: Ready to do
Nancy: They’re not ready for maybe not even.
Dr. Liz: And maybe not ever be!
Nancy: Yeah!
Dr. Liz: They might, may not ever be that person.
Nancy: Yep.
Dr. Liz: They may just want to stay as a good cable tech.
Nancy: Just feeling that pressure that ‘well it is a promotion, I’m getting more money so why wouldn’t I take it’ when they’re in it for 30 days, 60 days and they’re hating every moment of it.
Devon: So what’s interesting about what you guys are saying is I look at you know as I’ve worked with now thousands of people um in terms of not just developing leadership but sitting down with um people who have been put in positions of leadership where they may not have wanted to be there, and or, the irony is they’re making less on salary than they were in commissions, particularly in.
Dr. Liz: Right *laughter*
Devon: The business of sales, right?
Dr. Liz: Yes, mmm hmm.
Devon: And yet, they’re so proud to get that next title because inherently, people love moving up. And do we need to change the conversation of advancement means moving up the ladder when in service of the company itself, the entity.
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Devon: Advancing somebody who has a great skill set but may not be a great leader.
Nancy: Mmm hmm
Devon: as something that needs to happen but if I advance the person who’s been there the longest or the person with the greatest skill sets, recognizing them by advancing them into a position of leading others, is that a fundamental disconnect that’s happening in companies that paralyzes the actual growth of the entity?
Nancy: Absolutely.
Dr. Liz: Yeah I,
Nancy: And I think for you to have such an open candid conversation back and forth with this young gentleman to find out, ‘are you comfortable with this? Is this something that you might be interested in?’ That doesn’t happen very often.
Devon: Mmm.
Nancy: You know not in my experience have I seen people have tho-that type of dialogue. So rarely when you do, and then it’s like ‘wow, that manager’s really looking out for the best interest of that, of that individual.
Devon: Mmm.
Dr. Liz: Well and I also think that millennials and gen-z’s they, they don’t look to titles as much as long as they are being reaffirmed in significant ways and I say significant. So, what would a culture look like if you were absolutely in your area of strength regardless of, of position. I know that Google does this, that as a leader, it’s not a hierarchical move.
Devon: Mmm.
Dr. Liz: They don’t get more money, they just have to do, they have to serve. And I hope we will get to talking about good leadership traits later in the show, um but I think that our structures have to look really different now.
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Dr. Liz: And one of the things, I went to a conference uh not too long ago and I love this they had this they have this whole system of recognition. Where everyone in the company has a certain amount of money that they cannot give to themselves, but they have a certain amount of money throughout the year that they can give to people who do a good job at what they’re doing.
Devon: Mmm.
Dr. Liz: And it allows people to be recognized, not just the big leaders that are the showy people, but it’s that person who, man they got all that data crunched for you on time and did it well and that made you do better in your project, and they get to give out this money throughout the year and by the end and they’ve also shown that it’s much better than a yearly bonus because a yearly bonus lasts about the good the good feeling of that lasts about 6 weeks. But if you’re doing these constant pieces of recog-recognition for good work and yes, it’s monetary but that’s fine.
Devon: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: I mean I think that’s awesome. And they actually have what they would’ve put at put in bonuses, and they just give that out to ev-everyone has some so that they and they have to use them by the end of the year.
Devon: Right.
Dr. Liz: And I- I think that might shift this whole that we automatically have to be in this titled position
Devon: Promote to a title instead of recognizing for the hard work
Dr. Liz: Yeah
Devon: And recognizing for getting shit done.
Nancy: Yeah.
Devon: Yeah.
Nancy: So let me give you an example of how a program like that can not work so well *laughter*
Dr. Liz: Okay *laughter* Good, I like I like the anti.
Nancy: *laughter* true story, um worked with an organization and they came out with these ace awards, and it was really to recognize people for going above and beyond their normal positions. And, they had previously been awarded fairly easily, but it was for that very reason you know, to recognize this isn’t normally within your job description but you went out and spent 6 weeks doing college recruiting, you know. So gave this person the *inaudible* award well then they wanted to revise it and revamp it. New leadership came in, and the bar was so high…
Devon: Mmm.
Nancy: That people were, it- it was almost more defeating and discouraging to managers to even attempt to go through the process for the $1,000 bonus, that it completely diluted and d- you know, diminished the value of getting that reward. Because the standards had been changed to a point where, you know yes it should be something outside of your normal routine job but um it really came to a point where managers are like ‘it’s not even really worth going’ you know ‘going to beg and borrow, steal, grovel to the CEO for 1,000 bucks.
Dr. Liz: Hmm. Well that’s a good example, one it wouldn’t work.
Nancy: Yeah so I think having a well designed.
Dr. Liz: Yes.
Nancy: Um really making sure that it targets the right types of behaviors and what those guidelines look like.
Devon: Is it micro instead of macro?
Dr. Liz: See that’s
Nancy: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: That’s what I was gonna say, I think that’s the difference. In this case, you you are supposed to give them like out every month, and it doesn’t have to be for something that’s crazy awesome, it’s just ‘hey you did your job and you did it well thank you.’
Devon: Mmm hmm.
Nancy: Right.
Dr. Liz: So I think, you’re right
Devon: Using currency as gratitude as well as recognition
Nancy and Dr. Liz: Yeah
Devon: From your peers, not necessarily a top down recognition.
Nancy: Absolutely.
Dr. Liz: Right.
Nancy: And it can be so.
Dr. Liz: Right. That’s a good differentiation, thank you for making that.
Nancy: Yeah. It can be so minute too. I volunteer and a gentleman that comes in and does kind of the heavy lifting for us, um came in the other day and we were just talking about the whole volunteer experience and um things that we both felt could uh, be better based a really on part of our conversation last, um week when we talked about uh recognition and um retaining volunteers and he got choked up when he told me that one of the other organizations he supports just gave him a thank you card.
Dr. Liz: Aww.
Nancy: There wasn’t a.
Dr. Liz: Written probably.
Nancy: It was written.
Dr. Liz: Which is awesome.
Nancy: There was no Starbucks gift card in it *laughter*, nothing. He got teared up. You know, 65 year old man who just that’s his pleasure in life at this point he’s retired, so he gives to probably three or four different organizations every week, and he was choked up just because he got a handwritten card.
Dr. Liz: So this brings up a good point, because not everybody likes to be appreciated the same way.
Devon: Mmm hmm
Nancy: Yes.
Dr. Liz: And there is a book, the 5 languages of appreciation
Nancy: Uh huh
Dr. Liz: It’s written by one of the guys that did the 5 love languages
Devon: Mmm
Nancy: Uh huh
Dr. Liz: And, he goes into you know there’s its different kinds of um, recognition that different people like. Some people would hate to be called up in front of a group and recognized, and others would just live for that right?
Devon: Like me *laughter*
Devon: Actually I’d rather be doing the recognizing that’s what, that’s what my reward is yeah.
Dr. Liz: There you go. So, um I think we do need to keep that in mind that this, my example was with monetary but I think there’s you have to kind of keep in mind what do people really appreciate?
Nancy: True.
Dr. Liz: And that’s where good leaders get to know their teams and know
Nancy: Absolutely.
Devon: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: And know what they enjoy and what they need.
Nancy: Yeah. Know your audience.
Devon: So, circling this back around the- we-we had to steer off there for a minute to really recognize that recognition is important; not necessarily advancement in terms of leadership.
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Devon: And, on the topic of leadership, if we’re not advancing but we’re recognizing for the hard work and we’re really seeking leadership who would advance in a company, and or instead of advancing is it important to look for great leadership and bring them in to continue that process of recognition as well as motivation as well as everything that comes along with leading these teams and companies. What is important to look for from your team to advance that person into a leadership role and or what is important to look for in terms of bringing somebody in who makes a great leader?
Nancy: I feel like empowering employees to in in addition to the recognition but empowering them to do what they really want and love to do. That’s where they’re going to you know really um thrive and be successful um again going back to here’s the job description get somebody into the box versus hiring somebody recognizing all of the different talents and skill sets that they bring. And then empowering them to make, to influence the organization. So, prime example I’ve got a client who has a landscape business and they hired on an intern for the summer. He’s fluent in Spanish, they’ve got a big population of employees who speak Spanish, he’s actually gone out to the shop, out into the field and gotten to know them on a person basis, speaking Spanish certainly helps. But, he recognized that there were some operational issues going on where they weren’t bringing the tools into the shop to get repaired because it took too long and then they couldn’t get the hours of work, so they were jimmy-rigging their own tools. So here’s a guy, you know in school going for his MBA, took it upon himself had that initiative to go out and find what you know how-how is the organization working? Good things, bad things? You know how can I make a difference? How can I make an impact I mean as a millennial? Um, and so he’s done that in different pockets of this organization…
Dr. Liz: That’s smart.
Nancy: and has just wooed the management because they’re so impressed by the initiative and it’s really a bottom up approach. He didn’t have a fancy title; he’s just an intern, um so when we talk about influence and and uh I think you know recognizing and an- leadership. Recognizing and empowering are both two really important traits.
Dr. Liz: And I think that speaks to empowering and helping everybody step into their personally best place for leadership. I think there’s a different question that we maybe want to talk about which is, what okay if you really are looking for leaders to lead groups okay so this gets us passed the influence piece, which and now I’m gonna sort of contradict myself; what I said at the beginning but I think there are certain people that do you do lead you do help step into a leadership position where they’re actually leading a team, and I think there’s certain characteristics that help people there, I-I have found two that are really critical. One is, well actually three, the first one is um is a a real sense of humility. So when I say real sense of humility, meaning humble people don’t put themselves down. Humble people absolutely know what their strengths are, they’re confident in them, but they don’t see their strengths as better than everybody else’s. So I think it’s that it’s that realistic humility is the first thing. I think that the second thing is being a servant leader, which means empowering people.
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Dr. Liz: So how do I help people really step into what they’re good at and step into their strengths. And then the final thing is authenticity. Um, be you know being very real about who they are and what they have to offer without any condescension, so.
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Devon: Specifically, when you’re hiring a leader or looking for characteristics that make a great leader, what are those?
Dr. Liz: That, I well like I would say it would be humility, being a servant leader, and being um being authentic but I also think casting vision is also very very important for a leader. If you’re leading a group, you need to help every person on your team understand how they fit into the mission of your organization.
Devon: Mmm hmm.
Dr. Liz: They need to know that what they’re doing is important, regardless of title, because that’s what makes them wake up in the morning and want to come to work. Is that I’m making a difference and it matters what I do and I’m part of something bigger. And I think again that’s something that’s so important to the younger generations, they want to be part of something that matters. They want to be, they don’t want to be part of you know there’s certain companies that are having a terrible time recruiting right now, because they’re seen as big business and unethical. And then you’ve got the groups like a Google or whatever who, they can they can pick from whoever they want.
Nancy: Mmm. And I just have to add integrity, I think is so – uh anyone that I work with
Dr. Liz: Yes.
Nancy: You know whether it’s going to a doctor’s office or you know, a store wherever, you know when I’m not seeing that level of integrity and respect and um professionalism especially in a position of leadership, I can’t follow anyone who doesn’t have.
Devon: Mmm hmm
Nancy: A good strong sense of general respect and integrity.
Dr. Liz: Yeah, look at look at the Weinstein stuff that came out and different people that that we we find out that they’re ‘I didn’t do that’ and then we found out that they did and they’re done. *laughter*
Dr. Liz: You know, it’s better the ones that actually own it right up front actually do a little bit better than the ones that don’t.
Nancy: Or you’ve got Bill O’Reilly paying out 32 million.
Dr. Liz: Oh my goodness.
Nancy: dollars and has, you know factual information that, that’s false allegations. And I’m thinking, ‘and you’re paying 30 uh 32 million dollars for faults?
Devon: So what, what is it about these folks that allows us to put them in the position of leadership? What how, how do they end up there if, if what you’re telling me, leadership is based on being a servant leader and integrity and everything else, and yet time after time after time we see shitty leadership and then it ultimately comes out.
Nancy and Dr. Liz: Yeah.
Devon: But we’re talking several decades now,
Nancy: Right.
Devon: of leaders.
Nancy: It’s greedy.
Dr. Liz: Yeah.
Nancy: It’s flat out greedy.
Devon: So that determines leadership?
Dr. Liz: Well no I think longevity still is about what we just talked about. Those that are leaders over time. If you look at Billy Grahm, and regardless of your feelings about his religious views, he has advised, I think was Dwight D. Eisenhower his first president he advised?
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Dr. Liz: He has been a leader, he’s he has all the the things that we have just said and he, through every political group, he has lead those presidents.
Devon: Mm hmm.
Ar. Liz: And he has advised them, and I think longevity is one piece but there’s also, people can influence, and you can do it with the hammer, for a while.
Devon: Mm hmm.
Dr. Liz: It works, I mean like we talked about with Hitler, you- it can happen. Uh a Weinstein I mean everybody was afraid to say stuff about him
Nancy: Yeah
Dr. Liz: I mean he intimidated them, and that is one kind of leadership, and unfortunately it does work. I don’t think it works in the long term and I don’t think it creates good working environments, which is what we’re after right?
Nancy: I think the people around it don’t call em out soon enough,
Dr. Liz: No they don’t.
Nancy: Like Weinstein. Don’t call em out soon enough because they’re part of that gravy train. They’re part, their income is dependent upon how well they align with him, or how often they turn another cheek, so.
Devon: So we’re talking about some extremes here and yesterday we were sitting down with a guy who uh-um works on negotiation for sales teams, and um, he was walking about a company that he used to work for where they had a merger and acquisition take place, and as those companies merged they brought in a new CEO, the uh equity firm brought in a new CEO. They didn’t use anyone to assess this person’s leadership skills and he pretty much demolished not one, but both
Dr. Liz: Oh no!
Devon: Entities through his leadership.
Dr. Liz: Wow.
Devon: Unintentionally. Right so he wasn’t necessarily a Harvey Weinstein, he wasn’t a jackass doing a bunch of horrible things to people but he just lacked poor leadership skills.
Dr. Liz: Mm hmm.
Devon: Do you think that being a servant leader, uh I- I mean I could want to serve people all day long I meet people on the street all day long that are great servant leaders, but if I put them in charge of $100 million company, it could crumble.
Dr. Liz: Well, yes and no. See I, for me servant isn’t going out and doing anything for everybody as soon as they need it.
Devon: Mm hmm.
Dr. Liz: To me being a true servant leader is knowing your team and then empowering them, cuz that is how you serve them.
Devon: Mm hmm.
Dr. Liz: So maybe my terminology is a little confusing.
Devon: So how would you change that away from the fluffy feel good factor of servant leadership and what would you say the characteristics are like what you describe? What other ways am I, is it vision combined with the ability to recognize talent? And motivate talent?
Dr. Liz: Yes.
Devon: Inspire talent?
Dr. Liz: Absolutely and I think that empower- maybe we should just use an empowering leader, maybe that’s better?
Nancy: Mm hmm.
Dr. Liz: But keep in mind empowerment isn’t all about telling you everything that you do well, which is important, but it’s also holding you accountable to goals and um knowing your team and knowing where their strengths are and and working together with synergy, which *laughing* I know is not a word you enjoy but I love that word. I just love it when people really when they’re all their strengths are working together and they they synergistically create something more than one plus one.
Devon: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: And, um I think that an empowering leader is not somebody, I mean, I- I think of some of the best leaders that I’ve had were the ones that will tell me, um when I’m doing well and when I need to change things. And I had a leader who, probably is one of the best leaders I’ve ever met, was a woman and I remember after we had a corporate change that I was really upset about, uh and I had I- I’m one of these people that wears my heart on my sleeve, and she called me in her office and she said ‘if you’re gonna go to the next level, you need to not get so emotional’ and she said ‘people enjoy you when you’re so positive and upbeat’ but she said that ‘reverse of that when they see that you are upset, it wrecks what’s going on here.’
Devon: Mm hmm.
Dr. Liz: And I, so she’s not, so when I’m saying empowering, she was empowering me, uh but she was not she wa- it wasn’t like she was making me feel good.
Devon: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: I mean she was telling me ‘I care enough about you to let you know how you’re coming across to me.’
Devon: She wasn’t always giving you a trophy
Dr. Liz: No, no trophies for everybody.
Devon: And sometimes it was a swift kick upside the head but it was with the intent of growing you.
Dr. Liz: Yes.
Nancy: But that I think is what makes for a good mentor, a good leader, someone who is going to identify all of the different skills and talents that you may have that recognize if you want to succeed, these are the things you’re going to need to do.
Devon: Mm hmm.
Nancy: Or not do.
Devon: I think one of the interesting things I’ve learned from JP Flam with Green Peak Partners who assesses um you know the CEO, C-Suite level leadership. It is, he’s found that the greatest leaders have a combination of EQ and IQ, emotional intelligence combined with the smarts that it would take to play in that particular industry.
Nancy: Right. Kind of to answer back to your question earlier, can you take somebody who has good man- a leadership skills and put them into a high tech, multi-million dollar business? Not necessarily, that doesn’t make them a bad leader, but you- they need to be in the right position. You could have a kid in high school who has influence and leadership skills with no title, no pay n- nothing other than uh a sports te- you know captain of a sports team or just carries that charisma, the emotional IQ, all of the- has the integrity, the honesty, the humility, all of those personal characteristics. With,
Dr. Liz: The self-aware.
Nancy: With nothing other to gain other than to influence other people and create a positive environment where it’s work or play or volunteer.
Devon: It was also interesting, so when you’re talking about taking a great leader and putting him into tech he actually found that in many cases, it does workout as long as the person has a trajectory.
Nancy: Mm hmm.
Devon: So in other words, there are individuals who function at an average level, and then there are great people who may be put int positions of leadership that have an upward trajectory in terms of growth, developing themselves, that emotional intelligence combined with IQ, and if they always have a trajectory, uh and one example was he he was working with a company that was looking for a CEO in the gaming industry, Las Vegas slot machines and all this other stuff. Typically, they have a tendency to, I don’t know if this is the right word to use or not, but inbreed right? *laughter* Pull people from other gaming spaces. There happened to be a gap in the, um, uh interview process where the normal person wasn’t the right person interviewing, and they were interviewing a CEO from a completely different industry. But, they found his trajectory was massive; he had already built several huge companies. And, they brought him into the gaming industry and there was a lag time where he didn’t have vertical growth out of the gate because he didn’t understand the industry. However, once he started moving along and started learning about the gaming industry,
Nancy: Mm hmm
Devon: His vertical growth was almost straight up in terms of the growth of the company and the growth of the leadership and the growth of everything in terms of sales and revenue, because they were patient enough to give him that uh, uh distance in order to learn. But then all of a sudden he went faster and quicker than anybody else and made them the number one company in the gaming industry,
Dr. Liz: You know, Daniel Golman is the one that came up with EQ, emotional intelligence and all of that. And he says, claims in a way that high EQ actually raises your IQ 20 points, which I think is very interesting.
Nancy: Hmm.
Devon: Thank god.
Dr. Liz: And I would say it’s true. You know I mean if you look at the ones because it it’s to your point, this guy maybe didn’t know all the technical stuff, but the minute he got it, boom.
Devon: Yeah, and I do think we have got a a a a structure issue starting way before you get into a company, around leadership, and it starts in schools because we recognize IQ,
Dr. Liz: Yes
Devon: Over and over and over and over again and we put such a strong emphasis on IQ when in fact, leadership is predominantly based on EQ.
Dr. Liz: And, like we talked about in our millennial show, I- the younger generations are lacking in that largely because the way they are socializing right now is through technology, and through, you know a lot of how they portray themselves, is how they think people want to be portrayed and they’re living double lives and, and being dis- I say dishonest in that they’re, they’re presenting two different things. They’re fracturing themselves and I
Devon: My real life versus my social media,
Dr. Liz: Yeah exactly and I think helping them really learn the skills for EQ and they can be taught. Now there’s certain people that just have it in spades, um they just do they get it
Devon: Thank you, thank you.
Dr. Liz: *laughing* they’re wise. And then there’s those who don’t.
Devon: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: And so but I think you can certainly sharpen the level of that with anyone.
Devon: Yeah.
Nancy: Mm hmm, mm hmm.
Devon: So, one of um *clears throat* my favorite human beings on the planet and the more I get to know about this person the more I truly respect him as a leader and I strive to come from his space not only as a visionary, but as a human being and it’s Richard Branson.
Dr. Liz: Yes, I love him.
Devon: This guy is incredible and he um fortunately, you know he not only walks the talk in terms of his leadership and I’m, I have seen this not necessarily personally, but through JP the gentleman that I was just talking about and another buddy Jeff, who had been on the island with Branson. And as an example, being that servant leader there’s an entire article here in, um the entrepreneur magazine where he’s talking about really, money isn’t the thing he’s searching for.
Nancy: Mm hmm.
Devon: In fact, he didn’t even start out thinking about that. He started out with a mission that mattered to him,
Nancy: Mm hmm.
Devon: Back when he was wanting to create a magazine and be an editor of a magazine in, the Vietnam War, and his passion behind not wanting to move forward with this and that lead him and motivated him and moved him and today, you know taking those micro steps like buying a 747 to start Virgin Airlines but then, um being that servant leader and constantly looking at those strengths and constantly looking at how do I inspire people through my actions first
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Devon: and then how to I really show up for people and, he talks about take the time to take a selfie with somebody.
*laughter*
Devon: Right if you are an influencer if you are that person that people look up to, s- take 30 seconds and say hi and thank you and it’s just the way he comes uh uh the way he approaches life. And I think a large part of it comes from this quote that’s at the top of a picture here where he says ‘nobody ever learned anything by listening to themselves speak.’
Dr. Liz: *laughing* I love that.
Devon: And if you, if that is a value to you, then you really start to see the world a little bit different, right? Being a leader that listens,
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Devon: you begin to really develop the skill set of having emotional intelligence and how you show up to inspire.
Nancy: Right.
Devon: To have those tough conversations.
Dr. Liz: I was just reading an article yesterday that, that was a great study on how leaders who are lifelong learners, again that trajectory idea I think is all part of that, that they’re always and they’re listening. They’re always looking to learn
Devon: Mm hmm.
Dr. Liz: and understand and they’re curious, uh that they are the ones that again have more longevity than the ones that have a lot of schooling and all of that and it’s funny, I’ll just say in the side, with all of the schooling that I have with the degrees that I have, I have, I didn’t really- I mean I guess it gave me kind of a foundation
Devon: Mm hmm.
Dr. Liz: to go from. But honestly it’s just- that really showed me how much I didn’t know, and it it did encourage me to be a lifelong learner. Than you can you know, if you constantly are trying to learn from other people, that’s what makes you interesting and that’s what makes you effective.
Devon: Mm hmm. And, and it’s easy to feel recognized when you’re heard. Going back
Dr. Liz: Yes, oo good.
Devon: to that listening skill. Right, if I am in a position of authority; in a position of listening and I’m focused less, less on me, how much of an impact can I have if I’m just there and present with you and hearing the thing, um that you need me to hear? And what you’re really saying and looking I think great leadership also comes from being able to see behind those onion layers right? Get to the point quicker.
Dr. Liz: Mm hmm.
Devon: Get to the, get to the not the solution quicker, if somebody comes in and they’re complaining about something that’s happening in the company or something that’s happening in their life, how can you feel beyond what they’re really saying because the thing that they might be saying the person that they might be complaining about that did X, Y, and Z to them, there’s another layer that they’re really telling you. And so the listening isn’t just hearing the words that are coming out of somebody’s mouth, it’s feeling the truth behind their words and feeling deeper and really getting to the problem,
Nancy: Mm hmm.
Devon: that’s arising right? How can I serve this person by having maybe a tough conversation and saying ‘here’s what you need to own in that particular situation’ because what we really discover is everybody we encounter is typically a mirror of the worst part of ourself or the best part of our self.
Dr. Liz: Mm hmm.
Devon: And, if I’m sitting there and engaging how can I get to that point to help them reflect on their role in that engagement and that negative engagement or positive engagement. I reward the positive and I’m willing to have the tougher conversation around ‘how did you play a role in inspiring that negative behavior out of that person?’
Nancy: Yeah absolutely.
Dr. Liz: That’s so good.
Nancy: Well and I think it translates, yeah
Dr. Liz: That’s so good, sorry.
Nancy: It translates to personal relationships as well. When there’s a confrontation, it may not have, as you said, anything to do with what was said in, you know out on the floor. There’s an un, unmet need there.
Devon: Mm hmm.
Nancy: And that’s what you need to listen for, is is that person not feeling respected.
Devon: Yeah.
Nancy: You know it’s not that so and so said this or that, it’s that it’s an ongoing need of feeling, of needing to be heard, needing to be respected, and if that’s not happening, you know whether you’re a supervisor of 3, or you know hundreds, um recognizing how everyone is wired so different, and yeah you can have those technical skills, I have a client right now that they’re got a genius working on their staff *laughter* but he’s blown through 4 employees
Dr. Liz: Oh damn.
Nancy: in the 4 months that I’ve been working with him. Because he doesn’t have that emotional IQ; he doesn’t have
Devon: Mmm hmm.
Nancy: zip zero *laughter*
Devon: Yeah.
Nancy: *laughing* of any type of leadership skills. To, to know how to manage and, again somebody who, we’ve talked about putting him into an individual contributor role, because he doesn’t have, I don’t know if I’ve ever met anyone with less emotional
Dr. Liz: Oh dear.
Nancy: intelligence, to be honest. *laughter* And then it’s, so it’s a challenge.
Devon: Yeah
Nancy: How do we, how do how do we reconcile this, you know if we need that technical knowledge, that genius as they claim him to be, um without annihilating the rest of the workforce.
Devon: Mm hmm.
Dr. Liz: One of the first skills I train on when I train leaders is listening and being curious. It’s just, you just, that’s what makes good leaders.
Nancy: Ask questions.
Dr. Liz: I mean I think it’s such a good point I love your quote, I’m gonna have to get that quote cuz I like it *laughter* put it in my quote list.
Devon: It’s, the whole article is incredible as far as his story and the question and answer dialogue with the editor of the of the piece. But so, you- you know another piece to this and then we’ll wrap up um, how important as a leader is it to recognize when somebody is cancer in the company and to get rid of the cancer as quick as possible?
Dr. Liz: Incredibly important.
Nancy: Critical.
Dr. Liz: And no one ever wants to do it.
Devon: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: But they bring everyone else down. And, I mean I think you owe them time to talk with them and put them on some kind of a development process to help them to make sure that
Devon: The warning
Dr. Liz: they yeah the warning. But if people see that going on and they see you not doing anything, it’s so demotivating to the rest of the team. And they get frustrated and it creates, like you said, you know the different conflicts that really wouldn’t even be happening if that person wasn’t there
Devon: Yeah
Dr. Liz: And I know I’ve had to manage people out of an organization, and it’s one of the, honestly one of the best things that I’ve done. I have a great example of one gal, she um, she was, and a she wasn’t a cancer as in a bad attitude, which I think is the worst thing
Devon: Yeah
Dr. Liz: by far. But she just wasn’t good at her job.
Devon: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: She kept losing files, I mean she was our administrative assistant and she kept losing all our files and, you know a lot of what we were doing was content and stuff you can’t lose these files right
Devon: It’s like the, it’s like the field goal kicker for a football team, you’ve got one frickin job *laughter*
Dr. Liz: Thank you!
Devon: Make it between the two posts, dammit.
Dr. Liz: *laughing* that’s right *laughter*
Devon: I can understand a 63 yard field goal but for God’s sakes, when it’s 20 yards make the damn.. right
Dr. Liz: That’s right.
Devon: Frickin Denver Broncos, sorry I’m going off here
Dr. Liz: No no, it’s true. So, anyway and I you know we had that conversation and what I, what was interesting was, and I had been talking to her, you know over time and I finally said you know ‘do you feel like you are doing a good job? I mean are you happy here?’ And once we had really built a good enough trust relationship, she could open up and say you know, she goes ‘I hate that I’m not doing a good job’ she goes ‘I’m even trying to get lessons from my husband; he’s trying to help me get better’ and and because this was, it was a nonprofit where people donated their money
Devon: Mmm.
Dr. Liz: And I had to say you know ‘I owe it to the people who donate their money to this organization, that I make the very best use, of the money that we spend’ and I said ‘I feel that we can have somebody who is gonna be better at this job’ and I said ‘I believe that you will be wonderful at something else.’
Devon: Yeah.
Dr. Liz: And so we talked to her, talked her through that and tried to help her find some other things, and I actually was at an event, probably 6 months later and she ran up to me and gave me the biggest bear hug and she said ‘I am so happy, thank you for firing me.’ And I was like ‘I didn’t fire you, you decided to leave after we discussed it’ but, she said yeah she said ‘I’m actually doing art therapy with children’ and she goes ‘I love everyday of my job.’
Devon: Yeah. Yeah how how I think the warning period and and thinking through how to exit someone,
Nancy: Mmm hmm, well
Devon: yeah well, is probably one of the most effective things you can do,
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Devon: in general not just for the company but for the individual. The warning period is really interesting and it’s not even that it’s a warning period but it’s, it’s again being that great leader where you can look at someone and recognize that there’s a disconnect. They may be a great skilled person at the thing that they’re doing, but when they’re not performing well you’ve got to be able to sit down with that person and coach them and help them and serve in a way of really, and again getting to that onion layer piece of what’s really behind why they’re lacking; why they’re falling behind. And when you have the talent to do that and all of a sudden there is change in them, through that warning period if you wanna call it that,
Nancy: Mmm hmm.
Devon: through that transformation, if you can find and dig deep and figure out I think actually now that I’m talking about this, every leader in a company should go through a program to learn how to extract greatness out of people whether they belong in that company or not. But if they’ve got a skill set and they’re doing the skill set well, but they start underperforming, to know how to coach out, and and really extract the reason why they’re not functioning well. And then inspire a change, when you inspire that change, all the sudden the repercussion and the ripple effect of that person performing at an elite level, is incredible. A great example is actually another gentleman, uh uh Mark who, he has so much passion for everything he does. And he’s this incredible mind in production. He’s run thousands persons events and all these great things and we sat down, we went on a company retreat and he worked with uh uh JP, and JP just kind of extracted a couple bullet points as to what’s really the underlying reason why you’re so passionate about what you do? And how can we focus on bold positive action? And he actually encouraged him to go get a tattoo, whether it’s permanent or not *laughter* of BPA, bold, positive, action right, and that was his chant, his call. And I’ll tell ya, I mean I have n- the the transformation that came from that one conversation with a skill set,
Nancy: Mm hmm.
Devon: and a tremendous skill set applied to somebody that is taking bold, positive action in the direction that he wants to, uh he’s doing way more than production. He’s brought 4 or 5 massive clients to the table that will hopefully be closing here soon and all kinds of momentum has come from that movement and it shifted the culture of the company as well.
Nancy: Mm hmm.
Devon: It’s inspired everybody around to do more and be more.
Nancy: Yeah.
Devon: On the flip side of that, if you’ve got somebody that is underperforming because they don’t belong in that position like you’re talking about, and they’re not in that space where they feel like they can take that bold, positive action where they feel like they are doing something that matters.
Nancy: Mm hmm.
Devon: It’s contradictive to their skill set
Nancy: Yeah.
Devon: It’s contradictive to their personality. Maybe it is a skill set but they just learn the skill set because our society says go learn to do something, but it’s not really the thing that inspires me, and you’re screwed.
Dr. Liz: Yeah.
Nancy: Or you have the skill set for it but it’s not your passion,
Devon: Yeah
Nancy: it’s not what gets you excited,
Devon: That’s right.
Nancy: you’re great with numbers you could be great in accounting but working as a bank teller? Shoot me dead. *laughter*
Devon: Yeah.
Nancy: You know, you just can’t do it.
Devon: And, and in that exit, how do you get that person to recognize, ‘I’ve worked with you for 6 months now, I’ve worked with you for a year here is what you’re great at and you need to go do that thing.’
Nancy: Go find it.
Devon: Screw what the rest of the world says, go do that thing and all of a sudden they end up picking up the phone and calling you and saying that firing or that quitting was the greatest thing that ever happened to me.
Nancy: Yeah. I probably spend about 75% of my time with my clients doing that very thing, helping them recognize to get the right person in the right chair, but if it doesn’t work out, how do, we’ve already invested months, maybe a couple years into this person, how do we really dig down, you know do a deep dive, find out what happened, what changed, maybe they were great when they came on board but something’s gone south terribly south. They are that cancer to the rest of the organization. How do you address that and turn it around? And I had a similar conversation with a gal where I said ‘why, why are you here?’ I, after a half hour, 45 minutes of her telling me all the things that were rotten and horrible about the company and her manager and everything else I said ‘well can you tell me why you’re here? What keeps you here 12 years?’
*laughter*
Devon: Wow.
Nancy: And I think it was, no one had asked her that. No one had sat down and said ‘what do you like what don’t you like?
Devon: Mmm
Nancy: Are there ways that you’ve gotta few support staff; you could hand some of this off? Are you willing to hand it off or is that that part of that control mechanism so, peeling back the layers but addressing uh cancer in the organization or a mismatch
Dr. Liz: Mismatch
Nancy: in the skill set to the to the job is, is critical.
Devon: So let’s wrap this up real quick and Nancy, what’s the one thing that you think from the HR perspective that makes a great leader?
Nancy: Yeah. Uh, great integrity and great communication, being able to have those
Dr. Liz: Oh, we didn’t say communication that’s so good
Nancy: Communication! Having those candid conversations, um being open, being present, being emotionally intact to hear what’s going to create the most successful position in your
Dr. Liz: Right
Nancy: person in your company.
Devon: Mmm hmm.
Nancy: Pulling out all of their strengths, empowering them, it doesn’t come with titles, it doesn’t come with pay, it comes with uh really recognizing what that person needs to succeed. Um, one of the best quotes that I was ever given from a mentor of mine said ‘you will only succeed as far as your manager wants you to’
Devon: Mmm hmm
Dr. Liz: That’s good
Nancy: And I have lived my whole career recognizing with a short period of time, months maybe years later, something the dynamics changed, and I thought ‘I’m not gonna succeed here’ I need to recognize that because my leader, my manager, does not have that as their goal or their mission
Dr. Liz: Yeah
Nancy: or, you know whatever for me. So to recognize, bottom up
Devon: Mmm hmm
Nancy: Is so critical too, to be able to have those conversations say ‘what happened? You know
Devon: Yeah
Nancy: We were working so well together, great mentorship and then something switched, what’s going on?
Devon: There was a disconnect, yeah.
Nancy: Yeah,
Devon: Awesome.
Nancy: communication.
Dr. Liz: Well and I would
Devon: Dr. Liz how about you?
Dr. Liz: I would agree with, uh it’s hard to pick one. Um, I think being able to empower people which includes the listening piece, it includes finding out what their strengths are, surrounding you with a team that are working in their strengths, at least 80% of the time, I mean obviously every job you have to do things you don’t love, but
Devon: What?
*laughter*
Dr. Liz: But hopefully it’s not a huge percentage of that time right? *laughter* There’s just a few things, and then I just think passion, I mean I have been around leaders who had no passion and I didn’t want to do anything for them, and I think it gets kind of,
Devon: Yeah
Dr. Liz: to circle back to the beginning of our conversation, I think people who have great influence have great passion,
Devon: Mmm hmm
Dr. Liz: And it may be the wrong kind and it may be selfish and it may be whatever, but they are able to get people on board and emotionally
Devon: They invoke emotion.
Dr. Liz: Yeah, and I think that’s really what adds kind of the fuel to organizations moving forward is that passion and mission and when people know that they’re a sincerely important part of that, I think that’s really what helps build their social capital.
Devon: I think for those that have companies or are starting companies, the important key and fundamental key to leadership is recognizing, A) your strengths. So let’s say you’re starting a company and or you have started a company. First, who are you? And what do you know about yourself that is great? And what’s your skill set that is great? And how do you combine those things?
Nancy: Mm hmm.
Devon: Don’t put yourself in a CEO position if you do not have CEO characteristics just because you started the company doesn’t make you the CEO.
Dr. Liz: Ooo that’s a good point.
Devon: Right?
Dr. Liz: Cuz that’s tough in startups, wow.
Devon: It’s terrible. Now there’s one job as a CEO when you do find that right fit as a CEO, is to do nothing but hire a talent and that comes directly from people who do this on a daily basis. Again, JP’s come up a lot here because he’s an exceptional leader extractor. He finds leadership in this world and puts them in that position and it’s and puts them in the right position. And his whole, his only advice to a CEO is ‘you must be great at surrounding yourself with A-level players that match what is most important to the entity itself and that is established, value systems.
Nancy: Mm hmm.
Devon: If we know what we stand for as a company, not always what I stand for necessarily as an individual, but what this company stands for. The why, as Simon Synec would put it, the value structure of who we attract and who needs to come into this organization and what we go out into the world and really accomplish. When we establish those pillars of values, then our job is to a- hire A-level talent with diverse thinking
Nancy: Mm hmm
Dr. Liz: Mm hmm
Devon: but same value system as the company itself.
Nancy: Mm hmm.
Devon: And when you do that you create an environment that makes it natural for leadership to thrive because you’ll see those people who have those leadership skills thriving in that environment and then you know that that is the person that needs to lead because they start doing it anyways. Whether you put them in that position or not. I appreciate you guys for your time and stay tuned for our other conversations around social capital integration and many many topics that’ll advance your company. This is a topic and conversations not just for you that are leading companies but it’s for everybody that would be in your organization. To understand how do we work together and really take that next leap in terms of transformation internally and externally in this amazing world of ours. I appreciate you guys for staying tuned in, stay um attached to all of our social media and everything else that’s out there. Take care guys.