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How today’s top Employer Brands develop their startup culture by taking care of their people

 

Culture and rituals will create themselves, whether you like them or not, if they are not developed and continuously held from the top down. For many emerging, growing, and even established organizations, focusing on the internal cultural components, such as activities or mechanisms, to reward employees is often an afterthought. We believe, however, that employee recognition is essential for curating company and brand culture,  productivity, establishing loyalty and reinforcing behaviors that serve the overall mission. 

Employees do look for satisfactory compensation and benefits from their employer, yes. But employees also want to contribute substantially to their organization and to be valued and appreciated for their efforts. Organizations that offer rewards and recognition to their employees for hitting major milestones or for exemplary personal performance are more likely to attract and retain quality candidates, boost morale and truly engage employees. Rewards and recognition also consistently contribute to overall employee satisfaction and wellbeing.  

Rewarding and recognizing employees can include a simple acknowledgment of an employee’s performance, genuine compliments and monetary rewards. For the startup though, it simply may not be feasible to spend excessively on perks or incentives for employees. With this in mind, we’ve gathered a comprehensive list of 25 out-of-the-box (and budget-friendly) ways to reward and recognize employees. These activities will not only bring a bit of levity to the office, but will also work to create an outstanding company culture and build positive and cooperative relationships amongst your team.     

 

Ideas to Consider and Adopt:

 

• Mini Brunches – Perhaps you are celebrating one member or the entire office, offer an arrangement of breakfast goods to get the body and mind going first thing in the morning. Hey, everyone needs to eat. 

 

• SNAPS Cup – (Pass around a cup and write a moment of celebration, recognition or praise for that person.) Each member of the team writes something encouraging or recognition of a milestone on paper, they then drop that into the SNAPS cup and then go around reading all of the nice sentiments and shoutouts from the cohort. 

 

• Obnoxiously Large Golden Star – Remember when getting a gold star next to your name in school or on assignment meant a job well done? Now take that to the extreme with an obnoxiously large gold star to show your team members they’re stars in your eyes. 

 

• Singing Telegram – Arrange for a group of acapella musicians to perform “Moving on Up” or “Celebration” for the top performer of the week/month.

 

• Cardboard Cutouts of the Person – Nothing says you’ve done great work like a life-size cardboard cutout, of yourself. Think car salesman or the Jonas Brothers.

 

• Face Cut Out –  The whole office has a cut out of a person’s face on sticks.

 

• Personalized Bobbleheads – You can design and customize a bobblehead doll of the employee of the moment. Who doesn’t want their own bobblehead?! 

 

• Custom Cake / Cake with their Face on it  – This is a treat the entire office can enjoy! When it’s time to show appreciation for a member of the team, order in a cake and customize it with an image of that person. Get the cake and eat it too. 

 

• Birthday Sash or Crown – Get one ask for the day/week – Recognize that special member of your team for their birthday, their company anniversary, because it’s Wednesday, with a Sash fit for a Pageant Queen. 

 

• Joy Ride – A team member gets to take the’ Boss’ out in his or her car, and lunch is on them – They fly, and they buy.  

 

• Surprise Gifts – Rewarding an employee doesn’t need to be extravagant, as long as it’s thoughtful. Even a small token of your gratitude like flowers, or special branded stationary when they least expect it, may just make their week. 

 

• Personalized / Monogrammed Journal – Everyone loves a little personalization. Give your team member something useful, but with a personal touch. 

 

• CEO for the Day – Depending on your organization, this may take a totally different shape. Perhaps this person gets to delegate that days’ tasks, work from the corner office, lead and oversee all meetings, whatever the case may be, let that employee ‘wear the crown’ for the day (figuratively speaking). 

 

• Work From Home Day / PTO – Give your employees the occasional 4 day work week, or let them work exclusively from home.   

 

• Traveling Trophy – unique to your office – Perhaps you’re all GOT fans, then make your traveling trophy a replica of the Iron Throne. When it’s that person’s time to shine, your team member gets to bestow the Iron Throne trophy upon their desk. Think about what is meaningful to your team and create your traveling trophy around that. 

 

• Gong Time –  (Celebrate a milestone “We Gong”) – You can order one from Amazon. Whether it’s “Gonging” for a major milestone, or closing a major deal, make sure everyone knows what time it is. 
• Fast ‘n Furious Fridays – (cut out early for better engagement and productivity) If you know there isn’t much being done from a productivity standpoint between 2:30 pm and 5:00 pm on Fridays, think about adopting “Fast ‘N Furious Fridays”. Give it all you’ve got in the first half of the day and relinquish your employees from their duties early.  

 

• High Notes or Wins of the Week email – (end week on positive) Let everyone go out with a win before the weekend. Send out a company-wide email detailing the high notes of the week. 

 

• Philanthropy Bonus –  (involvement monthly or quarterly) People want to help people. We’ve talked about creating a company with a sustainable future, but employees also appreciate opportunities to give back to their communities. Plan volunteering outings or company donations to a cause that matters to your team.  

 

• Company Promo – (Take pictures in company gear and post on FB wall for points – free marketing) Your company/brand likely has an awesome logo or tagline. Think about how to create merchandise your employees would want to wear, and then invite them to share that swag on social media. This is an awesome marketing opportunity for you, and an opportunity to connect for them. Offer up prizes for the photo in the coolest location or most unusual setting, etc.

 

• You +2 Competition – (Concert Tickets / Baseball or local monthly event) Give your employees the gift of a good time with tickets to a local event. Whether it’s a game or a concert series, you plus two (or however many you’d like!) others get to partake.  

 

• Badge of Honor – Custom Pin or Badge – (that is tied to a core value) Create a branded logo pin or badge that an employee receives for specifically exemplifying your core company values. This badge of honor can be given by peers as well as management.   

 

• Come up with a NEW activity – (Contribute to the culture with a new concept that engages the team) Let your team come up with and implement new activities for of-the-clock frivolities. 

 

• Rewards for Referrals – (Reward for bringing in a new employee or contact) When an employee refers a friend or colleague for a position within the company, (and they’re hired) it saves you time and resources. Reward successful referrals with a small bonus and a shout out.   

 

• EmPower Hour – Make time to have a one-on-one meeting where you welcome ideas for tasks your employee would want to be empowered with (beyond his or her ‘normal’ role) for 30 days and then work with and transition them out of that task (maybe not 100%) with a mutual understanding of what the KPIs are and how to measure “success”.

 

• “PROOF IT” – Have team members submit suggestions for a 15-30 minute pitch where they show managers why their way may be better than the current practices or operations. Empower employees to think critically about better practices to grow and enrich your company. 

 

Consider adopting one or all of these fun and out-of-the-box reward and recognition ideas. The impact on employee morale, loyalty, and productivity will be well worth your efforts.

 

Eric and Devon are joined by Justin Cucci, founder of some of Denver’s hippest and highly regarded dining venues, including Ophelia’s, Root Down, and Linger. What separates Cucci’s establishments from other restaurants in Denver, or in any other city for that matter, is his ability to create a uniquely sticky culture in an industry known for high turnover.

 

Cucci’s restaurants are known for having great food, distinctive settings and atmospheres, and unparalleled service. He talks to Devon and Eric about allowing the context of the city, food and/or neighborhood to organically influence the exterior and interior design of his restaurants. By adding a layer of purposeful misalignment, it creates a unique, memorable, and engaging design. Many of these ideas come from feedback, suggestions, and creative sparks that occur throughout the building and design process.

 

Cucci says remaining open to feedback continues to be a critical part of his operations, where everybody from the busboy to the executive chef has a voice in how the restaurant is run. Not every idea or suggestion is implemented, but giving his employees the freedom to fearlessly open a dialogue is an important part of the culture that gives each of his employees a sense of ownership and pride, which is evident in every interaction with restaurant guests.

 

The three talk about what corporate America can learn from his approach to culture, and the main advice Cucci offers is that culture is not something a company can create in a lab. It is in the DNA of the firm, existing before the doors even open. Companies that try to “create” an inviting culture are too late.  

 

Full Transcription from YouTube:

 

Welcome back to SoCap Talks helping innovators build tomorrow, today. Now here’s your hosts Devon Kerns and Eric Sutfin.

 

Eric: Today we have the fortune of having Justin from Edible Beats. Justin is the founder of here in Denver a few years Linger, Root Down, and many other amazing restaurants in the area. We actually connected last year at Denver Startup Week. And one of the conversations that caught my attention immediately was about the unique culture that you have in an industry where there is notoriously high turnover. And a lot of people based issues when you have much larger fish to fry. That was really bad pun issues to deal with, you have developed a culture that is that is incredible. And so first, I want to give you props on what you’ve created here in the landscape. And it sounds like a lot of other cool things around recipes. And one can you share just a little bit about that, before we dive into the culture component about what you guys are currently doing? Because its innovative and it’s disruptive outside of the typical restaurant restaurant? norm.

 

Justin: Cool. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. And yeah, I think for us, the brick and mortar part is really sort of passe, it’s there’s probably 1,000 restaurants a year opening up. But we are still hungry, we’re still growing, we still have a creative team. And so we’ve started to look at other areas, not trying to be disruptive. But definitely, it might be that way. But one of them is having a self published cookbook and Xein or magazine, something we put out twice a year that really just sort of exposes recipes from the restaurants design things, because we use a lot of stuff from the trash and recycled and repurposed as well as just sort of how we source food, things that people might be interested from the restaurant. So, that thing isn’t organic piece that we haven’t we’re halfway in it. So as we do in issue, I’m sure that the issue one, issue two will evolve and become you know something contextual, to what we do.

The other thing we’re really excited about is, I really think that getting food that’s delicious, is really important that it be affordable. And I know that might be funny, because my restaurant sometimes can, you know, not be as affordable. But because, you know, sort of Vital Route took us to where everything is about, I think $12 or less and so we want to try and get some of that food out into the supermarkets. We’re really excited to try and see if we can do something that’s on the same level with the same sourcing with the same quality of food, the same recipes and get it in a supermarket where you just grab it and go.

 

Devon: So out of curiosity, how did you get here, what was the passion behind the food industry, and what was the story behind all these incredible innovations in the restaurant industry and food?

 

Justin: I I was sort of inbred in the restaurant business. I have to pause so I can have a little punch line there. But I was inbred in the restaurant business because my grandparents owned a restaurant in New York, called the Waverly Inn and they owned it for I don’t know, about 50 years, and I grew up there. And so I had just, you know, from the time I was, I think, eight, I was trying to insert myself into that restaurant. And all they were trying to do is keep me at bay, like, do not come into this restaurant, go be do something meaningful, be a lawyer, be a doctor, do something, go to college. And so, as I was going through school, I did both. I went to school and I wanted to make, this is 1986, I wanted to major in computer science. But after about one semester, I realized that writing code for computers would be a worthless endeavor, because there was no computers back then.

Eric: No one’s making money doing nobody.

 

Justin: So I realized early on, get out of this computer science code writing 1986 vibe, and push myself back into the restaurant. And at that time, they were retiring and I asked all right, sort of really pushed hard to at that point, I had, you know, dishwasher I had served bar tended, manage, and I was like, ready to take it over. And they were ready to retire. So I really got a crash course in restaurants. When about, I think it was about 18. And I started to take over as the GM there, I was way probably, you know, under qualified way in above my head. But I was wearing you know, like two three piece suits at 18 because I wanted that restaurant to be the center of my universe, because I loved it so much. But everybody else in my family wanted that restaurant to blow up and you know, burn to ashes.

 

So it was this interesting sort of dichotomy of, you know, sort of a love hate that most of the family had, I just loved it. So that just became like, I always tell people, like, my passion, overcame my intellect. And I just followed my passion and really, you know, took it over and ran it for a bunch of years, until fast forward. I went, I left New York because they sold it finally to the the editor of Vanity Fair, which became super chic, and doubly famous than it already was.

I moved to Key West and open a couple of restaurants and sold those and just made a beeline for Denver, with no idea of what I was going to do or I was going to go.

 

Devon: Why Denver?

 

Justin: Denver, you know, it’s funny, like my wife at the time, and myself, we had picked bunch of places that we knew. And we’re like, well, we can go here we go to California. We neither one of us have been to Denver. But we had always like people we met from Denver. And we just kind of joked about it, like, let’s just move to Boulder, because we hope we heard boulder was great. So we, you know, packed everything up, went to Boulder immediately, that night, ended up turning around and moving to Westminster because we couldn’t afford to live in Boulder. But we ended up loving Denver from that point forward. And just really, I think found it to be refreshingly for that time of life. It just felt like the right place to be for us at the time. And then I moved down to Highlands and that’s when my love affair with Highlands happened. I really felt like that was the the Brooklyn to New York, you know, that’s the Brooklyn to Denver and I just thought like wow, this is where people who maybe are a little older who want to have a parking spot who want to have a yard who maybe have kids and worried about school in a live and I just felt like it was sort of the you know, the 13 up crowd or maybe even the 35 and up crowd. I just thought that’s where my restaurants should be because I wanted to be pretty inclusive I know the restaurants have a thing about being hip, but that’s not a scribe by us we just try and put restaurants that hopefully feel good, and and taste good, and look good. We really wanted it to be inclusive we want families we want you know people from the burbs, we went the people from the city, but I really didn’t want to be in the city. I really, you know, after living in New York, most of my life, that was a place I didn’t want to be.

 

Eric:  So you’ve been very conscious about that. When we look overall at your restaurants, the attention to detail is immaculate. I mean, you are very conscious about the locations you choose why they’re the interiors you develop, where does that come from? You can share just a little bit. So for those that haven’t been to Denver, what does that experience where’s that come from?

 

Justin: I think it comes from context, I feel like context is the thing that echoes in my mind that really drives every decision I try and make. So you know, what I would do in, you know, let’s say, New York, is that what I’m trying to do here. So the first thing when I was in Denver, I just started driving around and I wanted to find the right place, right, everything’s about the right fit, I found Root Down, originally old 1950s gas station. But the context of it of that corner in that neighborhood at that time and place it felt right and anything to me that has a story, like a gas station that’s been around for 60 years, already has, you know, just sort of bones to it.

So with Root Down, I really wanted to, like, honor the history I really just growing up in New York, it was like a shame for anybody. Or maybe its affordability, nobody tore down buildings, you took old ones, and you repurpose that 100 times. But I don’t think at least in my neighborhood, nobody really tore down buildings. So I really fell in love with, like, a building can have this life for, you know, hundreds of years, as long as it’s in, you know, the right hands, or it’s treated right, and doesn’t collapse. So we added on to that and really wanted that to feel like the addition was in context with the building. And then I wanted the whole thing to feel like it was in context to that neighborhood, so that it fit wasn’t the thing that was just dropped in. And so then it becomes this journey and this attention to like, how do we make everything sometimes be in context, but also sometimes be misaligned. And that is, I think sometimes the success of the restaurants comes from like, I call it “intentional misalignment.”

Trying to really have the process be organic, not try and get too many steps ahead. And more context comes in. Because as always building that restaurant materials would drop on my lap ideas would be thrown at me at the 11th hour after a while, was built. And so everything becomes like this, you know, sort of organic process of how do you take all these great ideas? And how do you listen to what people are saying, and when not to listen and incorporate that into the restaurant.

The simple thing for me is, at the end of the day, it could look beautiful, it could, it could have all the best architectural features. But if it doesn’t feel good, it doesn’t matter. And that’s where I feel like we really try and intentionally misalign things because sometimes that push and pull and that tension, if you do it right, I think can really make a place feel good even though tension and feeling good doesn’t always sound right.

 

Devon: Hence the airstream trailer on top of Linger?

 

Justin:  Just like that. That was we put an Airstream and Linger roof. It was an RV I bought for me and my family. And as a luckily as a restaurant and a successful one. The bad side is you never have time to do anything. So I had bought this RV and it was sitting actually in Utah where I had driven it out and gotten four flat tires and left it for years. And so I was like, I gotta do something with this. And then it was right about the time we were building the Linger rooftop and we just thought, I just thought like, I have this RV. Why don’t we just like crane it up and put a bar in it and make it with a food truck and make that its own sort of destination, all of which was ideas that were impossible to execute. But at least once the idea is there and it germinates it’s hard to like, say no to a really good idea. So we drove it out, gutted it we had a great contractor who really helped me like retrofit everything in it. And now we have a 1975 RV sitting on the roof of a mortuary serving, you know, street food and street cocktails on this beautiful rooftop deck. So that’s kind of the intentional misalignment. But at the end of the day, I think I mean, I think it just feels amazing up there. It’s just so unique. And so that sign is contextual, the you know, the RV now is contextual. So I hate to beat that word up.

 

Devon: Combined with the view. Yes.

 

Justin: Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah.

 

Eric:  I hear your, you say fuel a lot. You’re you’re feeling the space, the environment, but you’re listening to your gut, you’re listening to contextual surroundings and trying to make conscious decisions about what fits and what doesn’t. The thing that I heard you say last year that sticks with me still is that you equally listen to the feedback of your employees – that everyone, whether it be a buzzer or executive chef, you are an open platform to be able to take any feedback or constructive criticism to make the establishment better. Share a little bit about the culture that you guys have created there and why that’s important, because we talked a little bit how different that isn’t just the restaurant industry, and how that can even be translated into other industries. And we can get there but share just the culture and why you have this belief.

And and what does that done for the culture internally for your employees?

 

Justin: Great question. Hard to answer, I’m going to just try, I feel like a part of it came from, I think questioning authority is really important. And most restaurants are set up with a really big hierarchy. There’s the executive chef who gets to do and say, and be whatever he wants. And then the expectations and everybody else are non negotiable. And having been, you know, learned in in kitchens like that. It was really like, sometimes the last thing I wanted to be. And I was like, why are we trying to model ourselves after somebody who you know, is kind of like it tyrant or a dictator sometimes, you know, that stereotypical chef. And so there was also this sort of haves and the have nots in the restaurant industry. So I think coming into it, I really wanted to be aware of that, that, you know, having been and done almost every job, it’s really alienates people when you’re not having something that’s somehow collective. And so right away, I wanted to have a sense of community and a collective and a collaboration. And it’s all to see words that nobody says in the restaurant world, the other C word you, you can always say, in the restaurant world, but communication collaboration collected, you can’t say those see words.

 

So the biggest C word for us became culture because I didn’t body all of that. And so trying to create a culture that was contextual to Root Down, because root down what it was. And what it became was also something I was willing to sort of let it fly a little bit, I wasn’t trying to drive it. And that’s how culture is also you can’t I don’t think you can cram culture down people’s throat, you can’t indoctrinate them to it, it’s got to be something that they kind of have to discover themselves. And so we’ve always tried to set up that culture at Root Down to work that way to be something that you want to hopefully discover you want to be a part of. And that at the end of the day, that voice that you mentioned, I feel like as another important component is that I think in this day and age, to not have a voice when I mean the internet proliferates voice so then even the people who’s you know, living in their mom’s basement as a 55 year old, you know, 7-11 worker could all of a sudden maybe an amazing talent or have amazing thoughts and get it out there. And so I think we’re just, you know, sort of part of that culture of voice is really important. And if it’s shut down, it really makes people not want to be in that place.

 

So voice, we encourage it, we really want people to I want to be challenged, you know, my authority and I and we have meetings where we really encourage people to fearlessly communicate, we say that a lot, just like barely communicate, know that this is a safe place to do it and that you can say, “I think this sucks, or it doesn’t make sense why we’re doing it this way.” And then we can have a meaningful dialogue about it. And I think that somehow is empowering that then the the people, the servers, the bartenders, the busboys, whatever, then the culture becomes there, and then all we have to do is make sure that we’re keeping it within the bounds and making sure when there’s any infractions, you know, but otherwise, now, culture is sort of its organic thing. And it I like to say, like, I tell my managers like, build the culture, because that’s the one thing that’s going to work when you’re sleeping.

 

The old adage in the restaurant industry is in my grandparents live, then kind of died by this adage, which is, if you are not in the restaurant, things, we’re going to go wrong. And for the most part, they were true, everybody sort of turned off whatever they were doing in terms of their best selves, and they reverted to their worst selves. So to me, culture was a way to, like, create a best self environment so that the GM could be sleeping, the chef could be sleeping, I could be sleeping, and hopefully, what’s holding it together and creating, you know, the right decisions was this sense of culture, that makes sense.

 

Devon: It it really was, and when, and having experienced your culture, from the consumer side of things, there is so many little nuances as to why I love your locations, particularly Root Down and Linger and Ophelias. But when I think of the two places, I would go the most consistently that whether it be brunch or just a great evening meal sitting by the bar, whether I need the table or not really matter yours of the first two that come to mind. And it makes sense now hearing how you position this, both from the environment that has that push-pull, but you also allow for push-pull to happen on the human capital side of things. And that also feels like it gives them ownership because that is the number one thing I noticed all the way to the front desk, individual. When I walk in, there’s a sense of pride that isn’t arrogance but it’s also like, this is my place, and we’re going to treat you right but there’s a mutual exchange here, and they’re confident. It’s really rare to see, I think, in the restaurant industry so I definitely appreciate that for sure.

 

Justin: I mean, thank you, that’s great to hear. You know, that’s where I like I said, I hope I’m, you know, somewhere else, and everything is happening there to deliver it to everybody who comes in what their expectations are, whether it’s like you said, just a drink, in the bar, brunch, whatever that may be. And there’s a lot of trust there. I mean, that’s the thing, I think I’m in, like, I feel like I’m inherently risk taker, or risk taking. So a lot of my managers come into it and they, you know, that it’s really hard for them to trust people, right, and because they’re going to make mistakes. That’s exactly why I think it’s important that people make mistakes, because if you can have that trust there, and you can give them you know, sort of that slack and you can catch them if they fall, there’s a sense of ownership when they do it again. And I think that they now want to do a better they’re now vested in the results as opposed to somebody, micromanaging them, directing them, giving them no room to have, again, their self be part of the equation. And so we’re always trying to talk about in our staff meetings with the restaurants about best self, because that’s the crazy thing is like, we have people sometimes as every business that could be analyzed and say, “You know what, that person is just not going to work out there, this there late there something” and I would say, you know, “I’ve been in places and I look at maybe who their leader is, and I say, you know, let’s look at who their leadership is, who were they, you know, sort of, are they bringing their best self or their worst self?”

 

So I know, I could be in a situation and bring my worst self and I could be a really, you know, substandard employee who’s not very passionate, not very involved. But I know when I’m inspired and when I believe in what I’m doing and I have good leadership I could rise and excel and I think that’s a question that’s not often asked when you look at people’s fault is like, Okay, are we fostering their worst self or not that we have to say, that’s our responsibility, but are the things we’re giving them right now, just making them go to that easy place, or can we find ways to, to make them sort of see if their best self existing work, and then maybe somebody like that can become one of our best sort of, you know, sort of ambassadors of the culture and of the, you know, the hospitality that we’re trying to create

 

Devon: I love it:

 

Justin: Cool.

 

Eric: I think environment dictates so much of that, whether it be leadership or location, or just the way that you have some of these values and standards within your organization you have you’ve a lot of it that you’ve designed and created intentionally oftentimes I’m sure through mishaps and and blunders, but that’s what has created it, the way it is that creates that pull push pull contrast that you’re talking about. The restaurant industry is, is a unique example I think we had discussed briefly, but I’d be curious to revisit now, as some time has passed, if you were to translate or suggest to corporate America, to the rest of the world as not in this hustle bustle of the restaurant industry, some of these ideas that you have seemed to be so successful in creating this this empire you have created, what can they pull what can extrapolate, that would be the most impactful to bring into their organization, whether it be a small thing or a large, what would you say the some I’ve seen, and because you’re not in the restaurant industry, it might not be as impactful. But you just do this, you’ll see a night and day difference.

 

Justin: I think one thing I feel like I noticed about corporate culture is it’s become a buzzword, right. And I think a lot of corporations are trying to build it. And so I think a couple things, I’ll probably like a three parter. But I’ll try make it’s the same one is, I think there has to be a sense of organic newness and, and some gray areas. Because I just, I don’t believe any culture is going to thrive with black and white imposed on them that may be Part one is just having the, you know, sort of, I don’t know that the strength to be able to believe that gray can produce amazing results in in corporate culture, that’s hard. It’s back to the ownership of allowing employees to help decorate and trees. And I think a lot of corporate cultures, their culture is about how they do business. And it’s about how maybe we’re going to sell something, or how we’re going to, I don’t know, roll out our product, right. So they’re, they’re at least looking in the right area.

 

I think culture is sort of what happens before you even open your doors. And that’s where I think a lot of times when I hear or see people talking about culture, it’s it has to happen before you even talk about what you do and what you sell. And it’s just a matter of like, what do you want this place to be for humans, right? And it’s like, at the end of the day, we’re all in the human business, you know, to some degree or another. And that’s what I always tell people. It’s like, yeah, we sell food but it’s really we’re in the human business where humans serving other humans really dealing in the commodity of hospitality, and feelings. And if we’re lucky, we can fill your stomach and, and get you to like, you know, have other emotions through that way. But at the end of the day, it’s all about the sort of human factor. And I think if corporations stop looking at the products they sell, and the things they’re trying to achieve, and start looking at the human factor, knowing that people are really unique, and there really needs to be sort of guided, oftentimes to their best habits and best selves. And I think a lot of corporations don’t have a high threshold for that learning curve. And I get it right, because everything costs money. And if you have somebody who’s not in the right place, doing the right job, that could be a very expensive thing.

 

I think if there was more proactive systems in place, whether its leadership growth, whether it’s, you know, best self things, I even think just teach people that work as another relationship. Like, I spend a third of my life with my wife, I spend the other third of my life with my restaurants, shouldn’t I give the same energy to solving problems and talking about the hard things and going through the hard moments at work as I do with my wife? And I think the answer is yes, but most leave your shit at the lead your stuff at the door, you know, and I think that’s the thing we’re like, we don’t talk about these things at work, because it’s, it’s just work, man, just drop it. So I think that would be number two.

 

The last thing I’d say, I think there was something I heard recently about, like, the four sort of things that everybody is looking for when they go to work somewhere, right. And, you know, everybody needs to pay a bill. Everybody wants to be successful, of course. But I think if you boil down what culture can give people in a corporate environment, I think it’s really simple. I think if it can give Hope, Trust, Stability, and Compassion, all for things that don’t make anybody money by the books. There’s no balance sheet of hope. There’s no P&L that has compassion on there. And so it’s foreign. But if I just think if those are the human capital, and those are the four things that probably is, you know, humans, we want more than anything, when we enter into a place and give of ourselves, I think, then, you know, corporate culture would be a lot more successful in identifying how to instill those values. So sorry, I was wrong. But it was a three parter.

 

Devon: I think it was perfect on the I mean, those are three walkways that I think if you just digest that and execute on that, you can get your culture a lot further. And so what I love to do in wrapping up is here a little bit more about the direction you’re going, what is next for you?

 

Justin: That’s a hard question because we, we love, I think, as a group, and as a culture, I mean, there wouldn’t be more than a Root Down, if there wasn’t a culture, I had no interest in anything more than a restaurant where I could, you know, pay my bills, maybe get my daughter through college, and not worry about money. So that it never became this, you know, sort of vision of having an empire, or this big, colossal restaurant group. What it was to me was that the culture and, and how we looked at our food system, and how we tried to be as, you know, the best footprint as possible and, and how we looked at the creativity process, and all those things became so dynamic that we had to do it another restaurant, cuz the walls of Root Down work became limiting, we can only do so many, many changes, we can only do so many things of design. And it became like, “Let’s do this again.” and send it just grew from Linger. And so the whole process going from a Root Down to where I am today was completely organic as well. And always driven by just like decisions of like, Sure, let’s do it, it was never a p&l, there was never a business plan, there was never any talk about how we’ll get the money, it was just like, let’s sign the lease, and we’ll figure it out.

 

So with that very irresponsible point of view, towards business, it’s worked for me, which is great. But now I trust to try and do things a little bit more strategic, I have a little bit more on the law, you know, before I thought, if I, you know, lose a restaurant, so I’ll figure it out, I’ll take another loan or mortgage Root Down or do whatever. But now that there’s five of them, and they’re all five hungry kids in a very competitive very, you know, sort of, I think I mentioned earlier labor, the labor pool is disappearing. So there’s a lot on the line. And I want to be strategic at this point. So for me, I really want to continue to look at the the restaurants that exist in my group, and find ways to just grow the people that are in them, and try and find this next group of people who are going to, you know, sort of take over as I grow the people who have already put in the time and are now part of the operations team. And so part of it is like, how do we do this and maybe impact the whole and the way I’m looking at it as maybe my big picture plan. And this is actually where I’m going at Linger today is to talk to an Aesop specialist, because any stop is this employee stock ownership program, where you can build you know, sort of this when when culture where the ownership and the employees can both share and some benefits of owning as you know, the longer you’re there, and the more you commit, probably the more responsibility you have, the more that you can maybe have big picture take away.

 

So I’m trying to create a system so that when this all morphs into whatever it is next, that there’s some way that there can be a collective win. And Aesop is one of those ways and I don’t know enough about it to tell you if it’s amazing idea or a really, you know, bad idea. But I know it’s intriguing, because it’s about the win-win.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Justin: And so now everything I’m doing, I’m trying to ask, what is the win win, right? Because at the end of the day, there’s a lot of people who put a lot of time there’s a lot of teams there that, you know, just they open those restaurants, I don’t, I don’t do that anymore. You know, they do that hard work every day, I just try and, you know, fuel them up and wipe their windows, make sure the oils change and send them around the track a few dozen times, but they’re the ones driving that, you know, fast, chaotic car around those turns. And it’s hard work, you know. And so, I think other than growing responsibly, and making sure that we’re looking at our impact in terms we want to become a B Corporation as well, which I don’t know much about it. But I know it’s about being a pretty sort of high standard of sustainability. It’s about the wages you pay all being living wages, not just subscribing to them, and minimum wage. So we’re just trying to have more awareness about everything we do and how we do it.

 

And the last part of that of what’s next is, I think, to me, the food system is probably something that, you know, I’ve been trying to chase ways that we can affect the food system in maybe a preachy way by, can we go into schools? Can we do at vital root, I’ve been wanting to do a happy meal for like three years now. And the Happy Meal is simply whatever a Happy Meal cost that McDonald’s we’re going to do a happy meal at Vital route, but it’s going to be completely organic, it’s going to say, she ate kids will make sure that it’s not like, you know, a veggie burger. And, you know, parsnip fries, no, kids gonna eat that. So how do we design a happy meal for the same price so that families can see for the same dollar or $2, you can make choices that are going to feed yourself, they’re going to be better for the food system, and ultimately, hopefully make you feel better than going through, you know, no offense, Mr. Donald MacDonald, then going through McDonald’s and making some of those choices that are often based on time and money.

 

And so I’m obsessed with like, how do we get more delicious food quicker? And how do we make it less expensive, and that’s something I think we’re trying to find ways to have our experience and our restaurant group start to affect that, and it either schools or, you know, hospice care, like the kids and the elderly get the worst food in the country.

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Justin: There’s no doubt about it. So, how do we affect that and not just the people who can afford to go to down or link or any of the restaurants that I’m happy there’s people who can afford it, but what about the people who can’t and so that to me, is maybe the other what’s next is trying to infiltrate the food system in a non nefarious way to do good, the preachy part

 

Devon: I don’t think it’s pretty at all I think it’s brilliant and I would love to see that occur and I know we would be 100% behind you in any way we could make those connections.

 

Justin: It takes a village, it does yeah.

 

Eric:  Well I love the vision and I know our listeners love it too if they want to get more involved whether it be in person when they’re here in Denver or online if they don’t have the ability to travel year how can they get in touch How can they see a little bit more what you guys are doing Edible Beats?

 

Justin: Yeah, I think ediblebeats.com is our sort of mothership umbrella so in other words that’s our restaurant group’s name and then all the restaurants and which spell lover which is nice because this Linger is vital Root Down, El Five and Root Down so easy to remember but you can go to any LingerDenver.com, RootDownDenver.com if you want to see this specific restaurants l five Denver calm and, you know, we’re doing a lot of things. And I’m always opening it up to, you know, anybody who approaches me or contact me, like I’m all about that collaboration. Not that I want to encourage, because just because of time, I have limited resources to do all these cool things. But with the magazine with people who are interested in like, those kind of food system changes. Yeah, I mean, contact me. And if you have something that we can sort of bring to the table and make some of these things happen.

 

I’m all for that collaborative process and figuring out how it happens or if people just want to, like have a dialogue about it. Because I’m, I think being my team are usually pretty passionate about just talking about it so that people understand some of the pitfalls that are probably below the surface and kept that way so that people don’t ask as many questions so I really encourage like, ask him any questions of anybody. So wonderful.

 

Eric: Well, thank you for your time.

 

Justin: Thank you guys. I appreciate it.

 

Devon: Thank you.

 

Eric: And thank you for your services, it is wonderful to have you here.

 

Justin: Thank you.

 

 

Yep, we’re talkin’ about those damn millennials, again. They are such an important part of society and the economy, yet companies still struggle with how to connect with them as consumers and on the employee side, teaching millennials how to connect with customers.

 

Dan Negroni, founder and CEO of LaunchBox365, joins Devon and Eric, to talk about the disconnect, the misperceptions, the myths, and the reality of millennials and how companies can maximize employees of this generation and, in turn, how millennials can maximize their experience with employers to attain the skills, mentorship, leadership, and career goals they’ve set for themselves.

 

Negroni’s book,  Chasing Relevance – 6 Steps to Understand, Engage, and Maximize the Next Generation Leaders, is all about connecting the generations. In the book, as with his consulting business, he takes a systematic five-step approach to building getting people regardless of their generation to connect with themselves and then with each other.

Where most generations fail when it comes to communicating is that they rely on the stereotypes, the perceptions, the studies that show X, and the typical “You’re this and you’re that” mentality of grouping people. Negroni argues that it’s not until you dig deeper and start asking the tough, meaningful questions that you start to build understanding.

 

Companies that enable that kind of open dialogue, they will be able to unlock the full potential of millennials in ways they could not have imagined and the results will reverberate throughout the organization.

 

Welcome back to SoCap Talks helping innovators built tomorrow today. Here’s your host, Devon Kerns, and Eric Sutfin.

 

Eric: Wecome back to SoCap Talks, we have the distinct pleasure of having Dan Negroni yet another millennial experts on to talk about not only the consumer side, but the employee side of morals in the workforce. And Dan, you’ve written the book, tell us a little bit about your background, the book and what got you here?

 

Dan: Yeah, we wrote a book called Chasing Relevance to understand, engage and maximize the next generation of leaders and it’s really a book about connecting the generations. And what inspired me to get here was, we had a workforce of about 4,000, half of which were millennials and I had a couple of millennials coming up through the ranks at home. And it just struck me as strange that we really weren’t figuring out a way to connect with them both in the work side, having them connect with our customers, we were in the RV business and most of our customers were boomers and above and so teaching them how to build relationships, then being younger, the younger generation was a really critical part of customer service, and all those rankings that you see in an automotive dealership. Then at home, teaching my little one town to go get it and no workplace and be themselves and articulate value and make it about others and all the lessons that you spend when you’re a parent, trying to teach your kids how to be great, and create impact for others, kind of all combined to say, let’s take all those years of experience in managing and leading people and let’s create a business and stop complaining about them. You said yet another millennial expert, almost everyone considers themselves a millennial expert, especially if they’re a millennial, but we do it differently. We actually solve the challenge of teaching people how to connect with each other and themselves. And so after 12,000 millennials trained, and after a laboratory  where we learned a ton of stuff that’s worked we feared, but, I think we’ve got something here. And I think it’s going to make a difference for people. And and as with all exciting.

 

Devon: That’s awesome. So I know one of the first things that you really express when we’re having our first dialogue about what makes you different as this expert, you are very, very systematic, and your approach and I love to hear, what is that system? What is it that you bring to the table that really supports these companies?

 

Dan: Yeah, I love it right into the gusto. Dan, what makes you uniquely different? And what is that gift? And how do you share it with the world and you said it, it’s a systematic approach. And we believe that the system is pretty much a five step system. One, you have to understand the power of relationships, and the fact that it is not about you, whether you like it or not, no matter how old you are, Dale Carnegie said it and How to Win Friends and Influence People. If you can be other focused, if you can be a servant leader, if you could use people’s name, which is their favorite word, if you can use the Platinum rule, which is treating them the way they want to be treated, you will win. So that’s the first part I do I understand myself, my relationship with myself so I can articulate the value I can bring to others.

And once we understand the power of relationships, we go through an assessment, which is what are my strengths? Like, what am I really good at? What my gift to the world and my unique proposition which is what you just asked me? What are my values, my skills and passions on top of that, and what are they going to do for other people? So what’s in it for them in terms of really being able to explain that? What’s my brand? And how do I communicate that, and then the How do I give all that to people like telling stories, telling stories that are connection currency, that Win. So once you follow that trust, and then understand yourself, and able to articulate it in a way that helps others and understand that you’ve unlocked the secrets that it’s not about you, you can sell, you can get the date with the guy or the girl, you can get the promotion, you kind of figured it all out, and we don’t teach it in school. And so our system really is evolved to teach people what they’re not learning at home and they’re not learning in school. It helps them go, I don’t know whether it can save it on this podcast, I would say oh, I want to kick ass. Well, I did it helps them crush it. And when I mean crush it, I mean, really figure out how to connect with the people they need to connect with to make a difference in our businesses or their personal lives.

 

Devon: You can say anything you want on this podcast, by the way, as long as it’s blunt and serves people and if it if it occasionally needs the accentuation of a fuck or a shift and say it

 

Dan: I will as as a nation and as a workplace, you know, our employees are overwhelmed. They don’t have time to learn new things. And we really preparing them to be engaged and to communicate and build relationships with both internal peers and external customers. And so that’s a big technical term sucking, but we’re on a mission to change that to make sure that people don’t suck, and they really concrete in back in a way that they want to create them. And, you know, millennials, they’re fantastic. And they’re pushing us harder, push harder to be all we can be, and they are right.

 

Devon: Absolutely. So thank you for sharing that especially, you know, I wanted to captivate with what makes you different. What I’d really love to dive into is like, What got you here? You’ve had a lot of success in the past and I’d love for everybody to hear a little more about your story and your journey and where this passion to really create systems and not just go out and talk about it came from.

 

Dan: So, I mean, my least favorite topic is to talk about myself, I’d rather talk about the passion of creating the action. You know, I was going to poor kid which was actually I grew up in the Bronx, I didn’t have a lot of mentorship and leadership. And I was always looking for that mentorship and leadership outside myself, people that would take me away or give me an opportunity to kind of show how smart or how hard I would work or what I could do to create an impact, whether it was you know, going to college on the law school, being working in a law firm, and trying to become a partner at the law firm, taking over business jobs, and running sales teams and all those things really was always looking outside for validation and for how to do that. What I’m realized was the best mentor anyone ever has and it only took me to like 45, which is now eight years ago, the best mentor you’ll ever have is yourself because that’s a person who guides you to attract all those people. And what got me here was shit, I think I figured that out. It only took 45 years. But I figured out it in a way that is clear and concise and bold and full of impact and about other people. Like I don’t do this stuff, because it makes them look good, although, don’t get me wrong, I like to look good. I do it because I want to make a difference. Live. Well, thank you. My hair came out especially good today. But I’m just kidding. Uh, none of that really matters. And actually, there was a point in my life probably at about 45, where I realized the true secret to success was the less I made it about me and the more I leaned in and demonstrated to people that I have their back the more I could create impact for them to change their lives and grow their business practices, and be a better CEO, get to the next level lead people better be a better manager, you know, report better to those people are constituents or stakeholders that had above them, even in the C suite, whether it’s your Board of Directors, by really kind of fine tuning this no bullshit, clear and concise methodology rules are simple.

 

If we make it about others, what’s in it for them will win every time. And so I the Me is got to go away and it’s got to be replaced with a We and a They and Them and what we’re doing for them. And so those simple principles that were inducted and Jamie diamonds, and Howard Schultz from Starbucks, and Richard Branson date they espouse and they know for some reason, even though it’s super simple to understand, again, we suck at it. And it’s really not easy to deploy. And how do we make it better to deploy this next generation in a way that I would have wished I had when I was younger, which was someone to help me figure out you know, the dot end side because there’s so many dot end side at all these kids are, you know, with ADD and OCD and all the technology, we have so many Dots we could follow. But we’re not teaching about the data side which will attract to the right dot out there in this OCD or techno fast world. And so, um, my journey was the evolution of not having that and then understanding it, and then being able to quantify it in a systematic approach that resonated with people where they said, shit, this is going to work for me, and what he says I want to learn to do, for me.

 

Eric: So I love that concept. I think that the sooner anyone can realize that, that value of really serving and, and not having to be about you that the more it is about others, and your contribution and you’re just human capital, that you are developing in your various circles of life, from your family, to your work to your community, that that is what success really should be merited on and financial impact will will be a result of it.

So we’re talking about a paradigm shift and a lot of people’s mentality as you understood this and created a whole program around this, there’s often a fallacy or a misunderstanding of millennials believing that they are the ones that have this inherent selfishness that they are thinking it’s all about me, and it’s quite the contrary they are actually are looking for mission based businesses. They want to be able to serve their spending more time and money giving back to nonprofits. How do you work with leadership and millennials included within the workforce to enlighten or illuminate this concept that really more when he was are caring about these things? And how do you shed light on that and work with organizations to help both parties, both generations understand this and then have a conversation around it and unite around it?

 

Dan: So I love the question I think it’s a great question and the question is, how do you get people out of the perspective which is you’re this and you’re that right? It goes both ways. The millennial think people my age, you know, Boomer age 53 and above our are, you know, set in their own ways don’t like new ideas are not interested in really building relationships, just want to tell you what to do. And we think they’re entitled and lazy and spoiled and don’t care. Most of bullshit, both are completely not true.

Use and experience of two different components and uses us and when you’re younger, and you’re a millennial, your world is all about you and it should. College is a four year degree and you write graduate school is two more years plus in you. And so are we shocked that they talk about themselves? Yes, if we if we ask people questions, and we lean in of anyone, we will see this option. So not to judge a book by it’s cover is so so critical. And it goes both ways. And so what we do is we push people by asking them tough questions like to the boomer really, why would you think that? Have you ever sat and talked to a millennial view? I mean, have you ever do you know what the four things that they want in the workplace, right? Which is mentorship, you know, coaching, they want you they want to learn real skills, and what is your obligation to believe, to teach them that as their boss, or the or the owner of the business? And you follow that? Because if you do that just sticks? Or they’ll stay longer than a boomer actually you’re you giving them feedback? And are you communicating with them? Are you giving them the ability to contribute and be transparent? And in what way? And is it about them? And not about you? Or is it about your customer? And have you spent the time teaching them not and and it authentic, or is it just a bunch of crap, it’s you’re saying that you don’t mean. And so we get in there and, you know, pretty bold in it. And for those people that want to change, they change, they listen, and they opened up very quickly, and they’ll take something away. It’s like any movement, right?

 

Any early adopter under those people that don’t, they won’t. And the same is true on the millennials. Like when you say, oh, that statement where you’re talking to a young lawyer, let’s say I was at a law firm last week, which shall remain nameless but I was at a law firm last week, a very big one. And all the conversation is about, I don’t get the certain diapers and I don’t get business development opportunities. And I’m not getting enough experience. And I’m not doing this. And I’m not doing that.

 

Well, the challenges you’ve used “I” 14 times and you haven’t learned how to articulate that you want to do that to make a difference for the firm. So it sounded like hey, I really want to become a partner here. I want to invest my time here. And I’m willing to learn and I would love for you to teach me and here’s the thing that I would love to teach, to be able to be better and to grow and to learn and I’m willing to do it on my own time. It’s just about the conversation of articulating your value in a way that it sprays for the other person to hear it and we call it other focused leadership. And so the answer to your question directly is you got to push hard on both sides to push them out of their their comfort zone, to having them understand that this isn’t about them.

 

And you know, as human beings, we’re focused in the survival mode and we’re focused on ourselves and it’s a challenge to push people out of it. But when you do, I will say Millennials are actually more apt to be able to shift more quickly, mostly because they don’t have” should have, would have, could have” been my life and all that disdain for what you haven’t created.

 

Right, dependably, David Thoreau said, “life’s about creating yourself not finding yourself when we’re older”. Well, now mad that we tried to find herself instead of spending the time creating millennials, it’s all about they get creation and collaboration. And so it’s really just looking at the others perspective and, and using words in a way that’s serves them, how are you going to serve your audience same is true with the consumer? And if businesses really understood millennial 75% of the working population in the next nine years, most of our customers 660 billion worth of spend, they realize if I really got and understood my millennial employees, holy shit, that would be a breakthrough of being able to allow us to understand our millennial customers. And we’d make Mo Money and everyone loves Mo Money, so especially when you can give it back and contribute and and have a purpose with it. And so I just think we’re not having the right conversations. We teach people how to have the conversation and feel free to do it in a way that they can respect each other and disagree but yet.

 

Devon: Agree totally, totally agree. It was really interesting yesterday we were sitting in an event listening to Kevin O’Leary share some data that seemed to be shocking to him regarding the companies he had. And the way he expressed it was I basically have a business now, thanks to Shark Tank in every city across America, and the smallest being 5 million and the largest being 500 million. And when they did an assessment and had an assessment team come in and really take a look at his companies, who were the best and why were they performing and outperforming even companies inside and outside of his investment portfolio?

And what was really interesting was he brought up the fact that today, and I think it has to do with this conversation, the companies that were outperforming the others were led by women, and they had women leadership and or women founders. And do you think, and I would assume that a large part of that is not just because of the women, but maybe the millennials resonate more with their leadership style, what would be your thoughts around? Why that why he seeing that kind of data?

 

Dan: Yeah, it’s so interesting, like a landmine of questions, right? For her to meet you, man and everything like this. But I’ll say that I love working with women, I think they have a different approach to eat you, right? Emotional intelligence, I think, you know, some of it is genetically inherent in being moms and really wanting to understand and not being, you know, the male Hunter, the agro, and I think they’re there on the whole better at communication and empathy, right. And empathy really is putting yourself in someone shoes in the secret to the Platinum rule, right?

 

The Platinum rule is, I treat others the way they want to be treated. If you treat your customer, the way you want to be treated by and Starwood has this whole ad campaign, which I don’t understand why they still keep on to it was we treat you the way we want to be treated, to give your shift the way I want to be treated, I treat my wife the way she wants to be treated, I tried for 30 of the 35 years to treat you the way I wanted to be treated, which is just like, hit me in the face with a two by four. But she actually likes me to ask permission before I start talking about things that are important or deeper, all those things. And so I think women just get that universally, and men are much more about contract.

 

Now, it doesn’t mean women don’t have conquering, don’t have competitive are not super sharp, super smart, but I believe women are better at relationship building, then we are traditionally and that is a stereotype. But I think there’s some science behind all that stuff. And so it doesn’t surprise me one bit and I will tell you this, the others are without women, because there’s such a small portion of the workforce, they are diverse, and they have a diverse perspective.

 

What scientists showed, and I think there’s a lot of reports on there out there is that when when old white men ruled the world, and maybe they still continue to, but that’s breaking up, diversity was a box we checked, we need a female, we need an Asian, we need a block, right? We need a black female. Okay, we got young people and millennials in general, understand that the cool thing about diversity is that diversity of opinion, create better results, because it pushes us further. And there’s science behind that.

 

And they’re much more tolerant about sexual preference about religion, about everything, they don’t give a shit. And that’s what’s so amazing about that. They don’t care about black, they don’t see color, they don’t care about age, and they don’t care about culture, they care about human and women have that diverse perspective. That diversity, especially since more of the population, I think by a couple percentages. And in some countries, even larger are women. And there are customers. And a lot of times you’re making buying decisions, especially when it comes to household or consumer goods. So you know, amen to that Kevin O’Leary, I mean, that’s probably the smartest thing I’ve learned.

 

Devon: Laughs – And what one of the other points you were talking about, you know, a big part of men’s drive is conquering. And I agree, I’ve, I’ve met so many women that are way more competitive than than I am. And I think that’s incredible. However, what I think that competitive nature or that conquering nature led to in some of the data that he gave feedback around was, men have a tendency to set astronomical goals. And it makes it really hard to create a winning team over and over.

 

Whereas the women in analyzing the data set highly achievable goals. And his reference was, if you’re on a basketball team, and the basketball team as feels like it’s winning all the time, you stay on that team, and with the team that always has this, you know, championship objective, every single time they play, it’s really hard to stay positive, and just want to be on that team. Because you always feel like you’re letting each other down when you can’t achieve those astronomical goals. And so part of his point was, maybe a large group of these Millennials are driven by being on a winning team. But we view them as not actually caring about that when, in fact, they probably do just don’t set these astronomical goals, set something that feels like we’re achieving.

 

Dan: You know, I think so I love that point, Devon. And I think it’s all about modulation. And the interesting thing to me is I just read an article about the two things that distinguish amazing CEOs from average CEOS and the 2 things where the ability to take risks and the ability to seize opportunities when they come. And if I like in that, you know, just hearing you and experiencing what you’re saying to how women would take risks and seize opportunity, and probably would be much more measured, right. So it’s much more successful, instead of going all the way out, as you know, and then wondering why you didn’t make it, it would be much more progressive. And so it makes sense to me that calculating the risk and calculating how you seize the opportunity at each moment and how you build upon that are probably saying that are much more metric for women. I would say millennials tend to be much more than giving and sharing right and communal as we see some of them really like socialism from a political point, and really wanting to an enough it’s not I don’t have to have all the marbles I can share some of them, so maybe that or they have the data. But again, I would point to no matter what it is, it’s about understanding the people you work with, what they do, what they’re capable of, and being able to implement a leadership strategy around that. And I just think that women are probably, you know, much better.

 

Eric: So I love there’s the multiple components of the the four threads that you’ve talked about storytelling, leadership, development, and mentoring the like, can you give from your experience and engaging with companies and facilitating these workshops and trainings with them? I want two pieces of advice, one before the millennials that are listening to this about the perspective of  the C suite, and how can they understand you’re talking about stories and understanding and asking powerful questions. If you had one piece of advice from your experience, I’m talking with C suite and management, what would that be to millennials? And then on the contrary, for those that are in management, what would you shed a light on or or give them something to chew on around millennials in that perspective, if you had just one, you know, piece from either side of that coin that you could share? What would that be?

 

Dan: To, to the boomers into the more senior resulting doctors be open, be open to new ideas and collaboration Do not be threatened and welcome information and a progression to what will be because clearly what was relevant 30 years ago is not relevant content. With the exception of what the advice I would give to millennials, which is double down on understanding how to build relationships, I’ll share the most meaningful thing that happened to me this weekend was time I spent with a friend of mine who’s a senior wealth advisor who’s built a huge business billion dollar business and the sales manager in some capacity said to him at the way to succeed is to go go meet rich people.

 

And the wealth advisor in this particular incident has a very different philosophy. And the philosophy is I treat people the way they want be treated, I see what they’re interested in, I bring value. I focus on kind of the three buckets that Jonathan fields focuses on how to live a good life, Vitality, Connection and Contribution until I approach everything I do enough by going nestling up to I think the rich people are, but understanding what everyone needs from me. And in my particular book, a friend of mine also said, who’s another wealth advisor, “My theory is to help one person a day,” one person a day I’m going to provide value to.

 

So the senior manager of this the other person I was talking about basically said, “Yeah, I don’t think that’s gonna work, to helping in relationship building, all providing value. It’s more about just going and meeting people.” I’m telling millennials, they have it right. It’s about knowing people, and helping people and understanding the power of relationships,that is the threshold that makes the biggest and best sales people and the biggest and best country realtors and impact players in the world. And so make sure that you have the skills if you’re a millennial to to be able to articulate your story, to get the story out of others, to ask questions and to double down on providing value to other people and making it about that.

 

Then whatever you do in your career, you will be on your path to learning and growing and getting all the things you want to do and your winning. To the old guys and gals out there that really just see it as just this rubric of we make a certain number of calls, we do the same old bullshit all the time we just meet rich people, are we only people that are going to be able to do something for us, but we calculate every single move is a bunch of crap and over over the lifetime and over the way the world’s working it will not continue to sustain itself.

 

Will you get lucky at times and other people that are super artful and being manipulative? Yeah, but the more we get technical, the more we can have this talk over Skype the more we’re listening everything and you know and have chips in our bodies to know where we are like the Mission Impossible movie and all that other stuff the more we get like that and more important is to understand that the only difference we will make for each other is not one that’s about being human beings and study that, double down on that double down on being able to do that.

 

Eric: That is a great perspective awesome philosophy you do public speaking you are all over the world you’re working with companies one on one, how can people find you if they want more information if they want to work with you, what does that look like how can they get in touch with you?

 

Dan: I am super grateful to be able to speak it keynotes around the world and work with all clients Fortune 100, mom and pop shops and they can find us at DanNegroni.com which is my website we have a company launch box that we work through but you know Dan Negroni I think on Instagram Dan Negroni on Facebook denigrating on LinkedIn and noting and if you need workshops and you need all the training will get you to the right people. We have a great team or 10 or 15 coaches and we just adore and love and as you can tell, are super passionate about not only millennials but the work that we can do it everyone to bridge the gap and create a difference. So, thank you.

 

Devon: So awesome.

 

Eric: Thank you. We really appreciate having you on and look forward to continuing the conversation.

 

Devon and Eric talk with Kathleen Quinn Votaw, founder and CEO of TalenTrust and author of Solve the People Puzzle. Votaw’s 15-year-old company helps companies solve the human capital puzzle. It is a puzzle that many employers fail at, because they try to fit the wrong person into the wrong spot.

 

As the economy heats up and it becomes more difficult to find people, it is critical that employers take steps to maximize their talent. Particularly in tight labor markets, such as the current one, recruiting is a sales process. Votaw says it starts with good lead generation and engaging with prospective customers (i.e., recruits). But too many companies cannot even define their value proposition. So, the right recruits don’t find the company, they don’t engage with the company, and they don’t get into the selection/interview process.

 

Votaw argues that part of the problem is that recruiting falls under human resources instead of sales. Votaw insists that human resources is a valuable tool in any corporation that is widely underutilized and undervalued. But, like so many workers who are simply in the wrong roles, HR is asked to do things that are outside of its area of expertise.

 

The trio also touches on the growth of women in leadership roles and how the #MeToo movement has impacted the dynamic of the workplace.

 

Transcript:

 

Welcome back to SoCap talks helping innovators build tomorrow today. Now here’s your host, Devon Kerns and Eric Sutfin.

 

Eric: Welcome back to SoCap talks. Today we have an amazing guest Kathleen Quinn Votaw and she is not just the face behind TalenTrust, but she is the voice and the author behind the solving the People Puzzle. Thank you so much for being on today.

 

Kathleen: Thanks for having me. It is a pleasure. We originally got connected at this large executive summit and immediately connected around human capital and really being able to connect and solve people’s problems. And you work with them on a daily basis. You have for now closing in on 15 years. It’s our 15 year anniversary this year, big party and October 17, wonderful, super exciting will be there.

 

Eric: We will be there. Tell us a little bit about TalenTrust, about how you got started. What was the original people problem that you’re solving?

 

Kathleen: Well, TalenTrust was born in 2003, I had just been fired from a job from a company that had zero culture. And I was trying to figure out what was I going to do next, I was fired because I wasn’t a great cultural fit. And they weren’t a good cultural fit with me. And many people out there, never talk about the things they’ve gotten over the things they’ve had to go through. And I’m very proud that I was fired because from that moment on some of my clients, some of my mentors, some of the people I really rely on told me, they’ve just been waiting for me to start a company that will help them grow. So TalenTrust has become a company that helps solve human capital issues. We go into our clients and we do a people person gap analysis, and we really diagnose the issues that are driving them to find keep or grow great people. retention is a big issue that we find engagements and issue employment brand, which is your business, a lot of your business is a big issue. companies don’t have an identity so employees can’t find them. And our work is about helping middle market companies and a select group of Fortune 500 companies really define and culture employment brand, who they are, what they stand for, why they stand for that and really help people understand how to find them.

 

Devon: So now, let’s dive into some of the meat of what you were sharing with us earlier. And a big key point that you’d brought up was that recruiting is a sales process. What does that mean to you? Because that’s an interesting way of looking at recruiting. I’ve been in the recruitment industry since 1985. And recruitment truly is a sales process. It begins with lead generation who are who’s going to be attracted to your company and your culture, and why are they going to want to choose you? And why are you gonna want to choose them? So it’s lead generation is the first stage second stage is engagement, getting them to even talk to you? Why would an employee who’s gainfully employed, earning money for somebody else really happy and has a great commute, want to talk to you and your company? Yeah, you need to define your why and how to engage them. The next part that we uncover and unpack for our clients is really focused on selection. And that first that first touch pre-screening, the fourth stage is that interview, which is really where many companies fall down. They don’t have processes and systems around how to interview people and a behavioral based way, they don’t have words for the conference, they don’t know how to screen for culture, they don’t know how to screen for skills, they don’t know how to screen for values are non negotiable. And they don’t really know how to have an authentic conversation about what they want for their company. So and then, obviously, the last step that we bring our clients through is final selection, you know, hiring people, and again, that’s part of understanding the value conversation, we talked a lot about compensation, the compensations about value and it’s very emotional. So recruitment is a sales process, and we tend to give it to human resources. Have you met a human resources?

 

Kathleen: Good point, who is a sales and marketing professional, I haven’t yet now, human resources. People are wonderful, vital, very important to companies and cultures, but they’re busy doing other things that are really important to the organization, talent acquisition, culture engagement is sales and marketing oriented, and it’s time to move it into those functions. That sounds like a very systemic problem that comes from how, or even creating individuals that might be interested in working in an HR department all the way back to the academic side of things. Absolutely. And how much of that needs to be brought in how much of sales and marketing needs to be brought into HR training? So wonderful question.

 

Unfortunately, human resources is undervalued and underserved. And most corporations, it’s not strategic it most, most people in the human capital Human Resources function, don’t have a seat at the table. They don’t have a voice they’re not heard. And shame on the organizations that are keeping them out of the conversation. Because people are your most important asset, you’re putting them first you can’t have human resources out of the conversation. Yeah, so I agree that we have to integrate, we there’s been awful articles written about our HR colleagues, Fast Company came out with an article that says why we hate HR was awful on the cover. And then recently, Harvard Business Review came out with why we need to blow up HR. So HR is in a really in a bad, bad place. They’re having an identity crisis. The good news is about that identity crisis as they get to reinvent themselves. Isn’t it wonderful to be able to reinvent yourself?

 

Devon: Well, I love that you’re applying a similar approach to recruiting in general, recruiting doesn’t have as a variety of perceptions around it. And there’s a whole gamut, but you are equally disrupt. And that norm because you have this process and multiple puzzle pieces to it, because it’s not just about putting people in an organization share a little bit about all of the puzzle pieces and components that you evaluate and look at, in putting people in the entire process. Sure.

 

Kathleen: So our people puzzle gap analysis, diagnosis, probably about eight, eight areas in we focus on eight areas. Overall, we focus on culture and talent, but we start with them culture engagement, employment brand, then we move on to market intelligence. So where you’re located really, really drives the inventory that you have to deal with. And many people don’t realize there’s a science to this, you have to, if you’re going to locate your company in Timbuktu, you’re not going to have the inventory of people to get work done. So we know that and people shake their heads. But we don’t think about that when we open up companies. But it is vital to think about. So we look at market intelligence, we look at assessments, we look at selection criteria, we look at behavioral based interviewing techniques, which I mentioned, most people fall down, they don’t know how to have that critical conversation. And they don’t treat it as a system or process that’s repeatable and predictable. And then we look at technology. And we’re resellers of some technology that can help streamline some processes and systems to make you much more effective and really message to the employment-population or the candidate population that you want to come work for you. So if recruitment is a sales process, and in typical sales process, you nurture and message to the companies, you want to actually work with you. So you all you SoCap works with middle market, you’re probably messaging targeted middle market companies to come play with you come work with you. Yeah, you have to apply the same kind of rigor, strategy, marketing messaging to the candidates that you want to come, work and play with you. And what are your values, attitudes, traditions and beliefs? Why would they want to choose you because there’s a lot of choice right now. And people are looking for more than ever before, they’re looking for purpose. That is the people in emerging generations out there looking for purpose, they want to be inspired. They want to hear your story they want to be in the battlefield right next to you. So what’s your story, we as leaders forget to tell our story. That’s why I share everything very transparently in my book, and I share that I’ve been fired one time and look at me now. I wouldn’t have never started a company if I didn’t get that guest how much of speaking of story how much of your how we got here matters and how much of where we’re going matters?

 

Devon: Is it a 50/50? Or is it a how we got here story that really pulls people in? Or is it let’s create a “rally cry” on where we’re going?

 

Kathleen: I think it’s both I really think it’s both but I’m a real believer in your roots matter a lot. I’m the youngest of five and an Irish Catholic family and my father was an immigrant he came to this country legally with $20 in a spot in his pocket and a change of clothes and he built a wonderful life for us so understanding your roots where you’ve come from and your humble beginnings are really important and I remember those first couple years when I started my company it was called Denver executive search for a couple years it was me myself and I there were three people in the company and it was lonely and it was hard and I didn’t know if I could do it but I had to prove to myself I could do it and understanding that each each step in your in your entrepreneurial evolution forms where you are today so that is so powerful that I’ve learned so much from mentors who’ve given me time and so much time freely and so much great advice that I would never want to forget that Now on the flip side where you’re going is very exciting we’re talent trust is going is exciting. We are revolutionizing an industry that was established in the 1950s and not a lot, it’s changed with it yet. I mean, it’s still a huge transaction, you got a person pay me $30,000 who wants to do that anymore. So we really have a software as a service investments and lot investment model for our clients. So they can opt-in how they need to opt-in, we cash flow our fiscal model for them. So it’s concretely scaleable, we really want to grow great companies. And some of our clients have been with us for three, four, five, six years. I’m humbled that they love my team, which I love my team to shout out to my team.

 

Devon: Yay.

 

Kathleen: But we’re, we’re going is is is very exciting. And companies need what we do. So for me, that’s just going to keep me going for many years to come.

 

Eric: So speaking of your team, as well, we met a couple individuals who are heavy focused on the data and the assessment, How important is that to your business?

 

Kathleen: Well, um, you know, when you talk about human beings and human capital, let’s face it, it’s very emotional. And even for you boys out there, it is businesses emotional because its people and data helps you get your arms around it and gives you something to focus on. It really helps you understand where you are, so you can improve whatever you want to improve. So we arm our clients with data that can help make they can help them make better decisions that are non emotional, that will help them chart their course from an employment brand engagement, a cultural perspective, did you guys know culture became really sexy, and every start talking about oh, what’s your culture? What’s your culture, culture, culture, but nobody knew what knows what to do with it. They still don’t know what to do with it. There’s lots of good tools coming out. Lots of great engagement software coming out. It’s a company called amplify that has great engagement software, tiny pulse has great engagement software, Zeal has great engagement software, but it only goes one step in it gives you the data. But then what do you do? How do you create a culture with purpose? How do you create a culture by design, not default, and that’s where we play. That’s where we spend our time. And that culture is foundational to building other processes, and serve and services like recruitment, like retention tools, like assimilation, market intelligence, the culture feeds into all of that you can’t have one without the other.

 

Eric: I love the culture by design, not by default. Mm hmm.

 

Kathleen: I think in any of these circumstances, the data is, is really important to you to be able to use it and reference it. And like you said, pull out emotional holding, you can really be unbiased because there’s still going to be the emotional side of humans that are able to make decisions based off of that data. But you’re at least able to distance yourself and see it through a different lens. And as I’m sure you do these assessments and look at really, what is this person’s strong suits and where they fit well, are they really great as a manager? Or are they better suited over here, I think that that you guys have a unique approach and being able to look at 360 or the whole, just like a consumer lifecycle in employment life cycle, to the experiences that someone is going through from looking at the job application all the way through to the training within their first few months of the business. Absolutely. An assessment tools can be very powerful, and helping the individual understand what their strengths are. I’ll give you a story on that we worked with a company that was looking to create a sales position and wanted to repurpose somebody from their organization to go take on the sales function, the business development functions first time for the company, and they didn’t want to add someone new to the culture. They wanted to repurpose someone. So assessment tools can really be powerful in assessing. Does someone have the enterprising drive to overcome objections every single day, because that’s what sales is to really be in a sales role? And we assess their people. And lo and behold, we found three people who had the sales gene, if you will, the DNA to be a salesperson, which they repurpose two of them. And they’ve built a successful sales engine by not hiring new people, but using the assessment tools to repurpose people who are not quite excelling in other roles. Because people matter and I believe in putting people first and if someone’s failing, you have a responsibility to understand what their gifts are. Everybody has gifts. I believe that people are people like up every morning and they have great intentions. That’s just my belief system, what are their gifts? And what can they give, and if they have that sales DNA, they can thrive in that area. But they’re more mechanically inclined, they’re never going to be successful. So assessments can help you make sure that you have people in the right seats so they can thrive because everybody wants to be successful.

 

Kathleen: Right puzzle piece on the right place.

 

Eric: Exactly.

 

Devon: So I’d love to switch gears real quick. And it’s a big passion of ours to work with women in leadership, and you’ve grown a very successful company. And equally as important, not only have you grown your company to be successful, you help companies become successful, particularly in human capital. I would love to know and we were having a discussion earlier as well around women in leadership, and how are women changing the landscape of business women are emerging as leaders more and more, which I’m grateful for years ago, when I was 15, 16, 15 years ago, I walked into a business association and I was the only woman in a sea of Navy blazers and khaki pants and men men out there, throw away your Navy blazers and your and your khaki pants. And I was really one of maybe I think I was the only woman or there might be been one at the registration desk. And it was awful. So I see more women being courageous and integrating into the business community. I see more women being curious about how to put themselves out there professionally, how to take the lead that Yes, they can. They don’t have to, they don’t have to work for somebody else to be successful. They have they can do it themselves. Unfortunately, there’s anything inventory problem with women in leadership. There’s a lot of women who opt out during a certain period of their life. They don’t think they can, they might not have the support system, they might not have the appetite to invest in themselves. And being a leader is about investing in yourself. And being curious all the time and challenging the status quo that we don’t have to do things the way we always have done things and I was also like to tell women be a girl You don’t have to be a boy you can be a girl you can have nice hair and we’re pretty dress you do not have to wear that navy blazer I swear to god you don’t you can be a woman and there’s so many things that you can do to be successful in your career with this whole me too upset that we have out there.

 

Kathleen: I think the pendulum has swung a little bit too far. And I believe that women have responsibilities to receive information and and use their words so they are not discriminated against. I truly I’m 52 years old and I do not believe I’ve ever been discriminated against now. Sure. I’ve been in a situation with men where it’s been interesting, let’s use that word. But I have been very clear about my intentions. So there was never any any kind of confusion about that. And so I worry that women need some training on the words thing to use to say thank you. But no, thank you. If somebody invites you to their hotel room, meeting the lobby, please. Let’s meet in the lobby. So there’s a lot of education that needs to happen around that. I think, especially for them merging generations tools that they can use. I wrote an article about how they can overcome any of these perceptions. I think the media has overplay this. Me too. thing. It’s not not all men are bad. Not all women are bad. There’s some people who have done stupid dumb things, and they should be held accountable for it. But it’s about me, it’s about women and men leading together and we have to find common language and be really honest and transparent with each other. So that direct nature that gets us a nickname we don’t like sometimes it’s okay to be direct.

 

Devon: Yeah, feels like there’s a shortage of platforms for women leadership, even though there are enough there’s not as many as we’d all love to see yet. But better platforms, louder voices on the good things that are happening in the ways women are leading, so that we can squash down some of the negativity now there’s a necessity in the conversation to make people aware of the crap that has been happening. And yet it’s overplayed to the point of maybe discouraging some of the other powerful conversations that could be taking place. And I think that’s awesome that you’re out there not only having incredible discussions around how do we change the internal dialogue within companies, and how are we human capital focused, and that people matter within your corporations and outside of your corporations. But in addition to that, you are a voice and a an individual who really other women can look up to, as someone who leads with heart bleeds with passion and focuses on the people dynamic. And I think that is so powerful, particularly in your book, I see a chapter in there that’s mentioning is it lean into lipstick, because that will lead with lipstick. Yeah, tell us a little bit more about that.

 

Kathleen: Because I think it’s that’s a fun chapter. And it’s it is about my evolution. As I remember when I started in my career, and I was with a company called Austin Corporation. And I do play the game of trying to kind of mirror the men pant suits and boring pant suits and short hair, and really take on the image. And there was an aha moment I had working for a woman at Johns It was one of my clients at john Hancock back in Boston. And she was so feminine. And she was such a can’t say it on radio. But she was so good at what she did. And she was so direct. And I was I took stock that she was very well respected. And she didn’t have to change her style to fit so lean in with lipstick is be have the courage to be yourself, have the courage to be a woman, have the courage to be a wife, a mother and daughter, a friend, have a courage to be your whole self, because it also bleeds into what we teach our clients. When you hire somebody, you hire the whole person, they’re not you. Nobody leaves their stuff at the door anymore. If you believe that you’re really dating yourself, because when you hire somebody who hire their whole family, and so they have the courage to be the whole person, the wife, the mother, whatever you are to other people bring all of that to the party, because it will enrich your career.

 

Eric: And it sounds like the corporations need to create environments that allow for that whole person to show up.

 

Kathleen: Absolutely, they do. And, you know, I joke with my team, I have 18 full time employees on my team. But I’m accountable for 75 people.

 

Eric: Mm hmm. Right.

 

Kathleen: And, and if you think in those, if you think in those numbers, it’s an awful lot of people to be responsible for, but you really are, they depend on you, for their livelihood. And, and most people spend their their most of their waking hours at work. So you get up at five, six o’clock in the morning, you get in your car, your, you know, walk to work, you start working at seven or eight o’clock in the morning, and then you get home at five or six o’clock at night, you have three hours with your family, the cultures we create, at our business places directly affect the way the family receives you coming home. So we have a real responsibility as business owners, leaders to create environments where people can truly be themselves and, and, and have the freedom to do with it need to do to take care of their life, a woman who works for me who will go nameless, she had very important medical appointments today. And she was all worried about well, you know, I’ll be in at, you know, 11, and then I’ll leave and I’ll go to my appointment, I said, Why don’t you just go and not worry about work today, because you’re not gonna be able to think about it anyhow. And in our company. And we teach other companies this that we have an unlimited PTO, a strategy with our, with our colleagues. So if you need it, you take it, it’s an on the honor system. And on average, people take three to four weeks. And I’m glad they take they should they don’t have to punch in if they need to go to the school play. Or if they want to go to the baseball game. Or if they just want to go run out the back door and go, you know, go for a jog or go play racquetball or whatever they want.

 

Eric: Yeah, well, I’m sure that allows them to be rejuvenated. And they’re talking about your company and its highest regard, not only do their family and friends, but it has to be able to show and they’re passionate, they’re talking with their, your prospects with your consumers. And just the ripple effect of that is massive. And I think that this changing of the guard, this reputation that has existed around recruitment as a whole, it’s time that we really shatter that procession, and I’m loving you and women on your team are really moving the needle and, and company by company engagement by engagement, showing how you can put people first and how it’s not just a butts in seats, numbers business, how it’s really a people business, and it’s not, you know, B2B or B2C. It’s really human2human, it’s a stage and that that is what I’m hearing is, you know, the axis of what you’re really doing is that nurture feminine experience and how that translates in the various circles of your life?

 

Kathleen: Absolutely. You summarized it very beautifully. I like your B2B. See, to see human to human, I love that I’m gonna steal that now.

 

Eric: You can steal it, how’s yours? I got it. I got it.

 

So if you were to have one final takeaway moment, something that in most engagements, whether it be employees, or it be the C suite, they recognize and they have these epiphany moments, what might that be that you would share with your audience to to marinate on and perhaps really think about whether it be on their driver as they lay their head down on the pillow? What’s something that you think that really they should walk away from this way?

 

Kathleen: I think the key point that I want to bring to companies around the country is that it really is time to put your people first if we give lip service to people our most valuable asset let’s start living the values that ensure that they believe that you’re putting and how are you going to do that? How are you going to how are you going to achieve that and build a culture of really engaged thriving human beings that can help grow your company wonderful well well said people also can be able to listen to you do public speaking you’re traveling the country and they can also if they just want to be able to read the book they can pick that up too.

Eric: So overall, how can people listen to your message? How can they get in touch, or maybe take the next step with some interest.

 

Kathleen: Sure, so visit our website at TalenTrust.com, which is spelled with one T in the middle and we have a Resources tab that you can download all kinds of content and also order a complimentary book/ We have a website that’s entitled KathleenQuinnVotaw.com, which is my speaking site, so you can certainly engage with us for speaking as well. And our phone number is 303-883-8334. If you’d like to engage further. We’re happy to engage for a free consultation to see if we can be helpful. We’re very selective, we want to make sure we can make a difference and and we are very thoughtful about the customers that we work with. And they’re very thoughtful about working with us too. Awesome.

 

Eric: Thank you so much for your time. It was amazing meeting you and we look forward to future conversations about how these companies can engage with you and engage with their people. Thank you very much.

 

Kathleen: Pleasure to be here.

 

EPISODE 8 – Culture Trumps Everything – Keys for Internally and Externally Leading Companies Success

SoCap Talks with Devon Kerns, Eric Sutfin, and Gustavo 

From graduating with a degree in clinical and school psychology to working at a correctional center, to running an inpatient drug program for the Federal Bureau of Prisons, it is no wonder the success that Dr. Gustavo has had in consulting. His experience in dealing with a wide variety of people has no doubt lead to the powerful changes he has brought about in many different companies and since moving to consulting in 2000, he has yet to look back.

Since first starting with organizational culture consulting, Gustavo now speaks on a national circuit creating change for organizations, specifically around employee engagement and relationships. His book, Culture Trumps Everything, explains the importance of culture, and how it is a predictive behavior for the success of an individual or company. Culture is a lot more powerful than people give it credit for. Join Gustavo and the team as they break down the fundamentals of culture as well as the advancement of it. 

 

Welcome back to SoCap Talks helping innovators build tomorrow, today. Now, here’s your hosts: Devin Kerns and Eric Sutfin.

Eric: Alright, well, we are back at SoCap Talks. And today we have the distinct pleasure of having Dr. Gustavo join us. Thank you for being here today.

Gustavo: Good to be with you both. Thank you for having me.

Eric: Absolutely. You know, there’s a lot that we have to discuss here in this next 45 minutes or so. I know that you have spoken around the world about culture and had done a lot within this realm. Share with us a little about your background.

Gustavo: Sure. And I’ve been very lucky in that I made several professional transitions. So after graduate school, I typically tell people I spent four years in prison working a psychologist. So my degree is actually in clinical and school psychology. I went out and did a postdoc in forensic psychology where I worked at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in downtown Manhattan. And then I ran an outpatient I’m sorry,  in-patient drug program for the Federal Bureau of Prisons, in Danbury, Connecticut then I did it for years of traditional mental health in in a place called Glens Falls, New York, outside of Lake George New York, upstate New York State. And then I moved in the year 2000, I moved into the consulting and I really never looked back. So I was a consultant for 10 years in the area of organizational culture, creating change for organizations, particularly with around employee engagement, employee relationships. And then 2009 2010, I started speaking and went on the national speaking circuit, I kind of stayed there since.

Devon: Without getting too political. I am curious, just because you don’t come across a lot of people that have spent that amount of time with prisoners and the prison system. What’s the personal biggest takeaway?

Gustavo: Wow, great question. I kind of talk about this in my book, the the biggest personal takeaway for me is that environment or what I talked about is culture, but our environment is a much better predictor of our behavior than our personalities or psychologies or human biology. But culture has a strong way of shifting our biology as well. And we know that through science, but we can get into that later. But the biggest takeaway to answer your question is that much of the behavior that we see whether it’s, you know, staying a political or if you wanted to go, we can go there, but

Devon: yeah

Gustavo: the behavior we see from our neighbors, from our friends, from our colleagues from people across the street is much more driven by the environment we create for people than their own personality, what they’re bringing to the table

Devon: and they’ve they found that about was watching and reading kind of from the same author that has a large part to do with addiction as well. People that continue to go back to the same environment have a tendency to stay

Gustavo: and having having worked in that field for several years, they’ve seen addiction, three things to change people, places and things, that’s the environment, it’s those environmental factors create a trigger, which tend to lead people back to addiction

Devon: great, awesome

Eric: so this why you say culture is everything, you actually have a TED talk about this, and people of course, and go and watch it outside of this, but overall, your concept that culture is everything, everything is dictated by this notion, right?

Gustavo: Right. So culture trumps everything. Yeah, culture trumps everything is the name of Ted, TEDex and also the name of the book, that’s also the name of the presentation that I’m doing. So yeah, the concept is that culture is a better predictive behavior. And it also changed our biology through epigenetics. So part of what I talk about in the presentation in the book is that much decisions we make around what we eat, what we drink, if we if we’re still if we exercise and how we manage stress, those are the things that we know change our epigenetics and those are all very much driven by our culture.

Eric: Now, of course, culture is in this case, you know, very of essence in our society, politics and our life. But you focus within the business realm as of late since 2001, you said, you then started speaking, working within the business environment, what have you found that has surprised you? Weekly, what stuck out in the business world about culture that most aren’t aware of requests.

Gustavo: Great question. So let’s start by giving people definition, okay, so culture is, the context in which we live in work, that that’s what makes it business, including beliefs, behavioral rules, traditions, and rituals. So those are the components of culture; beliefs are nothing more than the way we see the world. And I say, when you change the way you see the world, the world changes, which means you change your beliefs, your experience, the world is different, but you have a rules of the contexts or the rules of driver behavior, traditions, and rituals are simply things we do repeatedly. So that’s the definition of culture. And it’s if you want to look specifically at organizational it’s the environment or the context in which we live and work. Otherwise, we’re talking about culture at large culture in our society, which we can also get into, but with regard to one of the biggest, I think, misunderstandings, let’s say that people have about culture, a lot of people think it’s, you know, this amorphous thing that you can’t control, you can’t change it. And, and I think that’s the furthest thing from the truth. I talk about culture starting at the top of an organization flowing downhill like, with like water, with gravity affecting everyone that it touches. So from my perspective, it is the CEO’s role and primary responsibility to create a culture that everyone that is very clear with regarding to those components, beliefs, behavior, rules, traditions, and rituals that everyone follows.

Eric: Because if they don’t create it, the people on term are gonna create it, they’re gonna start shaping themselves

Gustavo: Exactly, I’ve had a CEO say, Well, you know, I don’t have a culture. And my response is simply you have a culture, you just don’t know it, and if you don’t know it, you have no influence over it. So as the CEO, you’re the one your primary from my again, my perspective, that’s your number one role, your number one responsibility, because everything else follows.

Eric: Culture doesn’t clock out at five o’clock.

Gustavo: That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right.

Eric: Yeah, this is cool. So now, when you’re going and speaking with organizations, small and large, what is the thing that you see impact them time and time again? Yes, they be they don’t influence it. But what is the thing that they’re coming back to you and saying, this has just transformed our organization?

Gustavo: Great question. So I think the biggest challenge for executives, and it depends on the size of the organization is an awareness that not only do you have an overarching culture, but you can also develop subcultures. So subcultures means that when you get people in groups together, whether it’s teams, groups for a project, you put them in different departments, different part of a building different geographically disparate areas of the country, you’re going to get subcultures. So what I talk about in my presentations, is, in addition to creating a culture, the CEO and I would argue that really moves more to the executive team, we can about the members of the culture too. But the issue for executives is you must make sure your subcultures are aligned, which means they’re all being now behaviors may look differently, let’s say, in an organization that has an office in San Francisco, Denver, New York City, but they have to be aligned around what are the beliefs what are the traditions and rituals and what drives those traditions. So to answer your question, subcultures is what people, I’m often brought into, kind of deal with, and make sure that they’re aligned.

Devon: One of the things I found is, as people explore the idea of creating culture, they don’t allow for freedom of expression within that culture, it’s almost too heavily dictated, what would you say to that, because there’s, there’s kind of a balance there isn’t there? There’s the idea that these are our belief systems values, and yet, you need diversity of thinking, you need

Gustavo: Absolutely

Devon: flexibility and freedom to function within those.

Gustavo: So people, and I think that’s a great point that you bring up that because people think diversity is ethnic diversity, it is in part, but there’s also a diversity of thought, diversity of habits, diversity of execution, the idea with regard to that type of diversity, and that flexibility, let’s call it is to have a culture that sets parameters around what is acceptable behavior, and then allowing people to choose where they fall within those parameters. So and I’m not saying that you don’t have accountability, I’m all about creating a performance based culture, which is all about accountability. But the issue is, from my perspective, as an example, with regard to flexibility, the 40 Hour Workweek, the nine to five, that is a remnant of Henry Ford in 1914, that’s it, we can get into that if you like. But the issue is that if someone can do their job and take two hours off in the middle of the day, and they are seat still part of the team, part of the culture part of the organization and meeting their specific goals, then I don’t care if they’re working from the beach, on a lift, or, or wherever they’re wanting, you know, that’s the type of flexibility that I talked about in, you know, let’s measure not, let’s not try and control people’s time, let’s agree to what the performance metrics are, and make sure everyone’s everyone’s meeting those goals.

Devon: I’d love to go down that rabbit hole, because I think so many businesses, including newer businesses, that are trying to think outside of the box are still, because of our education system, because of the Henry Ford Model, are stuck. And they don’t really understand the difference between where we should be going and why we’re so stagnant in the model.

Gustavo: So looking, let’s start with, can I start at the history,?

Devon: please

Gustavo: so here’s history. In 1913, Henry Ford and his Hyde Park plant had 14,000 positions he had to keep filled. In 1913, to keep those 14 thousand positions filled, he had to hire 52,000 employees. That’s a small city, that is a 370% turnover rate. It was eating him alive and he knew it. By the way, the top two reasons business fail in this country. Number one is under-capitalization, because they run out of money, number two is turnover. Top two reasons. So the turnover rate was eating him alive. At the time in 1913, he was paying people 2.25 a day, they were working nine-hour shifts, six days a week. 1914 again, because only because the turnover, he flipped his model changes model radically said, I’m gonna pay people $5 a day more than doubling their pay, they’re going to work eight hour shifts, six days a week, five days a week, eight hours, just five days a week. Think like Henry Ford a second, when you have nine-hour shifts, how many complete shifts do you get in 24 hour day?

Devon: two

Gustavo: Two right? When you go to eight hours, how many you get

Devon: three

Gustavo: he added one shift. In that year, alone with those changes, in that year alone, turnover went from 370 down to 16%.

Devon: Wow.

Gustavo: And productivity across all three shifts went up by 40%. Between 1914 and 1919 in that five year period, productivity across all three shifts went up by 70%. And the cost of Model T went from $800 down to $350. So if you wonder why we have a 40 Hour Workweek, you can thank Henry Ford. It’s a remnant from that shift. That is, he and everyone else followed.

Devon: So that sounds like a win. Why not follow that model.

Gustavo: So it’s because it was a manufacturing model.

Devon: yeah

Gustavo: So we moved from our economy has moved from manufacturing to service. And I would argue today we’re more information technology-based society, or certainly, certainly economy. So in that model in a manufacturing model, and we can talk about, I’ve certainly worked a lot in manufacturing, I lived in North Carolina for 10 years. So I have great experience with manufacturing environments. But even in a manufacturing environment, to go back to your flexibility. You, if you build teams around performance of this machine, that’s got to run at this rate. With this level of quality, this level of productivity, you build a team around that, and you let them set the schedule, you tie them together with team building, you give them what I call a cause something larger than themselves, what the product how the product is going to touch people touch society, and they don’t drop the ball and they will set the schedule to keep that machine running 24/7 three-shift operation.

Devon: Yeah, that’s very interesting. What were you going to ask Eric?

Eric: No I was gonna echo that around performance today, you have an interesting concept that we talk about offline I’d like to reintroduce and that is this notion around performance and being able to exceed even that 40 Hour Workweek by this buying you’re talking about share what is the secret sauce today now then that companies can implement or at least be aware of and make progress towards

Gustavo:  great question Eric? So in my book I call it Quintessence okay? So Quintessence is the effort and desire of the employee or let’s call it just more broadly members of the culture to go above and beyond the goal to contribute in ways that let’s say hourly employees wouldn’t because they check out at five o’clock so and I talked about Quintessence as being an organization’s competitive advantage. So I work with a lot with CEOs they’re always looking for what’s the competitive advantage what’s the competitive edge in their organization my response is always the same it’s your culture and it is specifically does your culture get your members the members of your culture to go above and beyond the goal so quick example here I use is Tesla. So Tesla motor vehicles, you know, it’s like a pure electric motor vehicle. Elon Musk went to his engineers and said, well, first let’s talk about the, let’s take a step back. So Tesla has a cause, again, I talked about cause as how your product or service changes the world or changes human experience the world which means changes people or touches people individually or touches society. So the cause at Tesla is we want to accelerate the adoption of electric vehicles and electric technology that’s their cause. The whole thinking is if we do that it’ll be better for the environment but for the planet, etc. it’s that line of thinking. The challenge to them achieving that cause is what’s referred to as range or distance anxiety. And people were afraid they’re gonna run out of juice and up with a thing of metal on the side of the road. So the first thing tested, did they build rapid, if you remember which I’m sure you do. They built rapid charging stations up and down the East-West Coast then a line across center of the country, not good enough. So Musk went to his engineers with whom uses what I call social Mars, which means he takes money off the table, he pays them fairly and reasonably then gives them the cause that I just shared with you and he said to them, we need your help to teach our customers that our car batteries are no different than a barbecue propane tank. So I want you my engineers to build a system that will allow our customers to drive into rapid charging station, drop their discharge battery and pick up a fully charged battery. And I want that exchange to happen in five minutes, or about the time it takes to fill a fossil fuel gas tank. You have six months to do it. They went off to meet that six-month goal, they met the five-minute goal in six months, they met that five-minute goal in four months, what do they do with the additional two months they created a system that executes exchange in 90 seconds. That is culture driven behavior, that is cause-driven behavior.

Devon: Wow

Gustavo: that’s how culture drive behaviors that that’s a traditional business can’t think about it. If Elon Musk said to his engineers, I will pay each one of you $100,000 for hitting that five-minute goal. What happened after four months, they would’ve been cashing checks. i

Devon: that’s right

Gustavo: f they would have stopped in five minutes, you know that’s what I’m saying that culture that that’s an example of Quintessence is going above and beyond the goal, that five minutes down to 90 seconds, didn’t cost them anything, it just gave them better product.

Eric: I love that example I’m looking at and hearing people’s stories about their 40 Hour Workweek and time again, as we’re going in and having interviews with people, they’re oftentimes as a culture where they’re able to achieve their goals within say, 20 or 25 hours of that 40 Hour Workweek. And then either they’re reprimanded or they’re not incentivized to be able to maximize the rest of that time. They’re asking for other projects, or trying to balance work between departments, they’re trying to exceed their goals, because that’s their inherent nature, where they do buy into the cause. But then the culture will often reprimand for that, what is the shift or the gap that management can make, so that not just these people, but others in the business community. And that’s great for companies like that that are so progressive. However, when we’re going into a lot of organizations, we’re seeing that there are those personalities which will go above and beyond, regardless of the cause, they’re just in their inherent nature, yet they’re reprimanded when in 25 hours during that work week, they fulfill their roles and responsibilities, so that remaining 20, 15 to 20 hours, they don’t know what to do, or the culture doesn’t incentivize or reward them to do that. So how, when, where within management do you help companies fuel this gap, so that not just these individuals which are overachievers, but the rest of the community business community can help with this Quintessence idea?

Gustavo: Thank you. Yeah, so great question. Let me, a couple of points I want to respond to first is when I hear, you know, will, that’s a personality, they’re just overachievers, while that may be their style and their personality, culture trump’s personality means that and I’m sure you guys have seen this too. If you take an A player and put them in a C culture, they become a C player, if you take a B or C player, and they you put them in an A culture and they want to be part of that culture, they become an A player. So I always caution about, well, that’s the personality because I’ve just seen potential, what I call potentially high performers putting a very poor culture and guess what, they’re not high performers anymore. Okay. So that’s the first the piece that you’re talking about. It’s like, what can leadership what can management do, to kind of create culture because I think the example you’re using is great for someone who is driven, let’s say, by the cause enough to complete what they’re in quotes, opposed to complete in 20 to 25 hours. And they’re in essence, being punished for finishing too quickly. And one of the, I often have walked into, again, manufacturing example where, you know, there’s a shift change, and I’m, they’re just watching the shift change when a person leaving goes the to the person coming in, Don’t work too hard. It’s like, what?

Devon: wow

Gustavo: Yeah, that that is, that is the classic, you know, don’t make me look bad. So, you know, drag your feet, whatever. So the first thing I talk about is stop measuring time, stop measuring time, you know, if you were, if you were stuck in the 9 to 5, if you are stuck in the nine to five model, you were stuck in the Henry Ford Model. And, and, and I, even in manufacturing today, I think there’s many ways There are many ways you can offer tremendous flexibility around performance. If you’re manufacturing your manifest, manufacturing a product, if you’re providing a service, you’re providing a service to a person, an organization or someone. So I tried to build teams around the final product or service, and everyone is responsible for the quality of that product going out the door, whether it’s a product or service, that’s, that’s ultimately key. So if the person who finishes to answer going back to your example, if they finish in 25 hours, they are part of a team that has additional capacity, at least from that person. So they can jump in either into let’s say, customer service, or product delivery, or maybe be part of another team, or maybe start another project that can if they’re if they are a tightly knit team, and they have a strong performance-based culture, then that person is going to find additional things to support the team without being punished.

Eric: but it takes the culture for them to be able to be trained, or at least allow for the flexibility for that crossover.

Gustavo: Yep, I think

Eric: but again that’s back to culture, you need the operations and systems to be able to support that.

Gustavo: Absolutely agreed. So when you’re when you’re saying training I talked about rather than, so historically, for older generations, we all talked about, you know, a corporate ladder and today, I talked about a corporate lattice, like on a side of a house, and, and the idea of a lattice is we train people by ensuring that every position organization has a set of skills, core competencies, and those become the nodes in our lattice. And we trained people to those core competencies, regardless of where they are today, regardless of what they want to do today, we asked them, What additional skills would you like to learn from this lattice, you got it, you got an entire lattice to choose from. And we connect them with people to be coached to be trained, etc.

Devon: So we’re talking a lot about the performance side of things, and how important it is to create a culture where performance is rewarded, not just the hours you’re putting into something. On the flip side, how important particularly with this next generation coming up, is that lifestyle fit, is the quality of life and the allowing for someone to have a quality of life. And what does that do in regards to performance?

Gustavo: Great. So let’s, so let’s just since you’re talking about this next generation, let’s just define some generational stuff for so yeah, so baby boomers who are typically in the seat of power, and most organizations they are, they are born 46 to 64, which makes them if I get my math right this year, makes them 54 to 72 years old. Gen Xers and by the way, there were 84 million of them at their peak or 84 million of them in our population. Gen Xers are born between 65 and 81, which makes them 37 to 53 years old. And they’re 68 million of them. Much smaller generation. Millennials, now these numbers are soft, but this let’s say the standard with currently being used is 82 to 2000

Devon: right

Gustavo: Which makes them 36 down to 17ish. So and they are 79 million so demographically, we have 84 million boomers followed by 68 million Gen Xers, followed by 79 million Gen Y’s. Which means, demographically 84 million boomers leaving the workforce with only 68 million to backfill

Devon: mm hmm

Gustavo: that’s a 60 million person gap which means every organization in every industry is fighting for the same pool which in essence, in short, that means they are in the driver’s seat; that’s the demographic reality. So let’s talk about what they want so boomers were all about time and money, how much time they created the 70 to 80 hour work week how much time are you willing to put in at work? And money how much how much money can we make that’s what motivated boomers. Gen Xer’s which were much more about productivity and work-life balance, measure my time measure my productivity and I’m going to separate work life from my home life and make both are equally important, but they were separated. Millennials they’re motivated by what I refer to as blended life. Blended life means if everything I do has meaning significance big picture purpose and cause then work doesn’t feel like work, it’s just a part of my life. So that’s why I talked so much in both presentations both millennial presentation and culture presentation around cause because that’s the key. And that’s by the way the key to millennials and older generations to at this point is that if everything we do has meaning and purpose in our lives, then it doesn’t feel like something we have to do it feels like something we want to do so it doesn’t feel like work. So go back to your question. It’s really if you’re measuring a nine to five, my view for anyone but particularly a millennial, you’ll be lucky to keep them 12 months. They just won’t stay because that the nine to five is not how they live their lives. You know, from my perspective, we all want to be millennials

Devon: and a lot of baby boomers are shifting back to that mindset

Gustavo: and what the data say is that boomers are leaving the jobs they work for 20 to 25 years and going to do what they’ve always “wanted” to do so they are now much less motivated by money and much more motivated by relationships and cause, the types of things that

Devon: which is funny because they seem really confused by the millennial lifestyle but yet they’re jealous of it

Gustavo: here’s the jealousy is that Boomer and I’ve gotten, I can’t tell you the number, if I had a nickel for every time I heard this, I paid my dues; I want them to pay their dues! And I just say, look, I’m not suggesting they won’t pay their dues, let’s allow them to pay their dues differently.

Devon: Yeah,

Gustavo: that’s it.

Devon: That’s right. So when it comes to let’s, let’s say mission-driven, cause-driven, does it always have to be directly associated to the work that they’re doing? Or can it be associated to the outcome of the work that they’re doing? In other words, does the company need to have a huge mission and some sort of incredible cause attached to it? Or can the work that they do have an outcome that points in the direction towards something that matters to them?

Gustavo: Great question. I want to make sure I understand it. So let me first for everyone, let’s make it let’s make a clear distinction between mission and cause. Okay, so the mission is what you do. The cause is why you do it.

Devon: Perfect.

Gustavo: So that’s the hard-line distinction.

Devon: So it’s called cost.

Gustavo: Yeah, so does a company need to have a mission and cause I think it’s, it’s important for an organization to have a cause that everyone can tie themselves to. And it doesn’t even have to be, let’s say, if the majority of the product that the organization does. So I’ll give examples. Like last year, I was working with a cable manufacturer. 80% of what they make is just traditional copper cable. 20% of what they make its fiber optic cable, which is interesting, and only 10% of their employees work on their fiber optic line. So going through the process that I took them through their cause became, we help save lives. Now, that seems kind of a stretch. But how did they get there, we went through this process. And again, the concept here is, the process doesn’t come from a leadership team doesn’t come from me as a consultant it comes from the floor. So what we found was that of that 20% of their fiber optic cable, a large chunk of it goes into GE heart monitors and MRI machines to go into hospitals all over the country. It’s only 20% of what they make, and only 10% of their employees actually work on that line. But 100% of them think it’s cool. So that so that’s why I became their cause.

Devon: Mm hmm.

Gustavo: So again, your question of does it have to be their product? For me, it’s how, how, where does your product or service touch people or touch society? That’s not kind of the fundamentals so and we get to the questions like if we disappeared, what would our clients miss about us? If we weren’t here? Where would our clients go to receive the service they get? How do you talk about what you do to your friends outside of here? How do you talk about what you do to people who don’t know you? These are all questions that would inform cause.

Devon: how much, so let’s say a company’s 10 years old, they never really took the time to figure that particular cause driven message out for the internal motivation, they discovered that, how much of the value system should stem from the cause based campaign?

Gustavo: That’s a great question. Um, I think that the cause should fit neatly into the value system. So my guess is that and, you know, sometimes I would say, the cause has the capacity if it’s real to, let’s say, I wouldn’t say do a 180 but to redirect the value system. And I would suggest in in a positive way, if it’s something that again, they can all rally around, because the issue the biggest mistake that I experience with causes, you know, I’ll get a phone call, you know, and, and consulting side of my world, I get a phone call, it’ll be some executive saying, Yeah, we read your book, we hear you do this cause thing? Yeah. Well, we came up with a cause a couple years ago, and it never stuck. Well, my response, really,, why don’t you tell me how you went about doing this? And they will say something like, well, we took our executive team, we went on a two week or one week off-site, we create a cause we bought it back and never stuck. Gee, that’s a total mystery to me. I can’t imagine how that happened. You know, they never involved their employees

Devon: right

Gustavo: That’s the key. So if you’re, if your let’s say mission statement has something to do with profitability first, a strong causes is gonna shift that because a strong culture with a strong cause is to understand that profit follows culture.That’s what I refer to the Prophet paradox when you build a strong culture, and, you know, we don’t have the slides here. But I have a slide that documents companies that are focused on culture first, make more profit companies that focus on profit first, make less profit. And it just profit is just lot easier to measure. So that’s what people want focus on,  but it ends up costing more.

Devon: that’s powerful. So you, you mentioned Tesla earlier regarding the ability to create an environment for performance when it comes to cause what’s a good example where a company has nailed that?

Gustavo: Well, I think Tesla has one. Who else can I mean, do you want public or ones that I’ve worked with? Because

Devon: you’re your favorite

Gustavo: Yeah, so I mean, I think the, the electric cable manufacturer, one that I really like, because that is the most recent one that I will, I’ll give you several. So I worked at the rebar manufacture, in a rural part of North Carolina. And, you know, the rebar goes into all sorts of schools and bridges and things like that. And their cause became we build the things that bring people together. Now, how do we get there. So again, we were going through this process, and we found out that a bunch of the rebar had gone, I’d gone to build a new Yankee Stadium in New York. Yankee Stadium is a place where people come together to celebrate their sports teams. And to celebrate John’s company, a large part of the rebar goes to build architectural bridges, architectural bridges, are beautiful to look at, and they span distant places to bring people together. So their cause became we build a thing that brings people together, for rebar manufacturing. So I worked with a pool cover manufacturer whose cause became we bring families together and keep them safe, a paving company, we paved the way for today and the future. And each one has a story, its own story, but a tire changing company whose cause became we get people back to work, you know, it’s where again, where does your product or service touch people or touch society?

Eric: overall, whether it be business or whether it be business or otherwise, all of this isn’t anything new. I mean, this goes back to people’s fundamentals nature of wanting to be able to be a part of something bigger than themselves and to have purpose and so we’re seeing now in commercialism this be adopted because people’s priorities are now shifting to more culture-centric businesses and dynamic supporting and, and buying products and services that support causes equally working for those four companies that are not prone to adapt for the ones that want to stay stagnant and not look at culture or address these issues within their company. How fast you see them going to the wayside because there will be common competitors, which are going to implement these principles. How quickly do you see that, you know, shifting even the fortune 500 companies?

Gustavo: Eric, great question. Let me just say, I think you absolutely nailed it. Because, again, this is what you nailed people’s primary human drives are to connect and belong, connect means build relationships with, belong, as you said, means to belong to something larger than ourselves. That’s, that’s what I refer to that as having our cause. So this transition, in my view, is accelerating. Why because of the generational shift we were talking about. I think, regardless of your generation, boomers have made the money they want to make are going to make, etc. So they’re following along in the shift. Gen Xers and look, I’m a Gen Xer and I’ll say, you know, we’re simply, demographically we are too small a generation to be influential in the workforce. And I’ll say, you know, as there were things the Gen Xers wanted to have in their work week, let’s say flexible jobs scheduled for four day work week that we tried to implement and got kind of overwhelmed by boomers.

Eric: you were outnumbered.

Gustavo: That’s exactly it, that’s exactly it. Millennials are making it stick. So the things some of the things that Gen X kind of tried to work we weren’t big enough a generation. Millennials are making it stick. So because look, unemployment let’s I think last numbers, I looked at unemployment nationally are 3.9% here in Colorado, they’re 2.6%. In a state like main, it’s 2.1 and the very conservative governor of Maine, Paul Page has started to commute inmate sentences to try and to try and get them out back into the workforce. Every again, but every company, every industry is fighting the same pool of employees, so my point is, it’s an accelerating factor, is that companies that can’t adapt or won’t adapt, are going to go the way the dinosaurs, you know,

Devon: cuz they don’t have a workforce.

Gustavo: that exactly, they won’t have people. That’s exactly right.

Eric: Or quality people. They’ll have people but they’ll be those ones that are buying into quiescence.

Gustavo: right or, or they don’t know how to build a culture to get in quotes, the right people, or the people who are willing to adapt to the culture that they create.

Devon: We’ve joked about this recently. But I feel like these people things are getting in the way of business

Gustavo: Right business would be easy if not for the people right?

Eric: one of these days, we’ll crack that code.

Devon: yeah those AI robots, they’re gonna be buying a lot of things.

Gustavo: Autonomy, autonomy is coming. You know, we can talk about automatic vehicles and autonomous vehicles, that that’s another kind of big challenge for society.

Eric: What’s in your view, how is that going to change society? Because there will be a lot of manufacturing jobs which support America that will be replaced by by automation? How is that going to affect the workforce? How are people income, he’s going to adapt? Or is it going to create new jobs? What do you see is happening in that regard?

Gustavo: Such a good question. All right. So quick example here. Okay. Today, there are about 8 million people that work in the transportation industry, from taxis to trucking, what have you. When you put the the technology of Uber, which obviously is well established, and the automated vehicle which is less than five years away, those people are out of a job to no fault of their own?

Devon: that’s right

Gustavo: What do you do with 8 million people in our society who are out of a job due to no fault of their own? That’s what I call a culture at larger societal question. And if you look in the literature, the answers are everything from you’re on your own to something in the neighborhood of universal basic income, or UBI. So the answer is we don’t have an answer as a society. But if you consider, well, think, again, the transitions we talked about in the late 1900s, 1800s, early 1900s, we were a manufacturing society manufacturing economy. In order to make the transition people basically went from the farm to the factory, both manual labor, they were transitions of skills, but all manual labor, most people made that transition. Then we went from manufacturing to service, well there’s another transition of skills. But it goes from manual to more people-oriented, and many people made that transition, but many did not. Now we’re going from service to information technology. And that transition is another huge transition. But more importantly, technology has accelerated the skills required to acquire the skills required technology. So the point is, if you don’t know where the on button is, on a computer, it’s very unlikely you’re going to be able to program code or run any type of computer or machine that works using a touchscreen as its interface. So my point simply is people’s if people say, well, you’re on your own, that may have worked on hundred years ago, because the skill set transition was much smaller in distance. Today, it is huge. So we don’t have an answer to your question. But what I’m saying is, this is something that we need to be thinking about as a society because I just in the in the driving example, in the transportation sample, 8 million people out of work?

Eric: that will shape our communities culture, and while it might be great for some businesses, it could severely impact society at large .

Gustavo: I believe it’s going to and I to your point, our community culture and we have subculture in the United States. You think about differences between east coast and West Coast, northeast, south-east, Denver and other cities, Denver midwest, there are different we have subcultures are our communities do indeed have subcultures, and I absolutely believe that different communities, different societies, different parts of our country, are going to deal with this problem very differently.

Devon: How important is that? So as an example, at SoCap, we’ve gotten heavily involved in the community, particularly the community that’s right around us. And we were talking about those circles, right? Richard Branson was talking about sub circles that are impacting your environment, both business and in personal. And then you expand out to the community right around you, your neighborhood, and then you expand out to the state, then you expand out to the US and then you look at global, right, and they’re all circles and what’s your influence within that? So for us, we’ve chosen to really own and love this lower downtown area Lodo.

Gustavo: Yeah

Devon: within it, we see a lot of the same issues that we’re talking about within the business community, internally inside business happening within the district here, how important is it for not just businesses to be listening to this, but those neighborhoods and those communities in figuring out game plans to have strategy and implement ways to educate that would support these 8 million people and beyond?

Gustavo: Yeah, first, let me say, I think the fact that you guys are so community focused is going to be clearly your competitive advantage. Because it’s how people will know you, they will know you for not only your service, but how you’re affecting Lodo. So I hands down, I think that that is going to be your competitive advantage. I think it probably is already if it’s not, it’s and that again, is going to accelerate how I think that when you have businesses team together to shift the community, then again, you’re creating subculture in that community. And whether people work here live here. It’s like the air that we breathe, it’s like the water the fish swim in, you know, everyone’s affected by, you know, you can have let’s go back to our example of, you know, you can have a genetically perfect fish you put in toxic water, it’s not gonna live very long, you know, you put it in the type of water for whether it’s fresh water, salt water, the type of water, it needs, the right temperature, it will have a very fulfilling life, what you are doing is you’re creating that environment. You’re creating the water for the fish that the air that we breathe, it’s part of what we all live off of what we all share. So kudos to you. I applaud you for it

Devon: Thank you

Eric: So culture trumps everything you guys can be able to watch his TED talk, buy his book, visit Dr. Gustavo on doctorgustavo.com. One final takeaway if there are business owners or just community members at large listening to this whether we’ve addressed it or not, what’s something that they just need to recall to be able to share to implement what’s the biggest takeaway that you invite people to really take home?

Gustavo: yeah, I the biggest takeaway for me is the title culture trumps everything really means whether you’re an CEO, whether you are a leadership team leadership team member, or whether you are a member of a culture I think the biggest misunderstanding is or let’s say the undervaluing is the power of culture. Culture is a lot more powerful than people give it credit for. And if you are executive leaders and part of the leadership team, from my view, yes, we talked about performance is key. And I’m not suggesting culture allows you to drop performance. I know I’ve never load performance in organization. So the issue is culture is the primary driver performance. I’ve gone into organizations that you need to clarify your code you need to clarify your standard performance and to get some standards of performance but I’ve never said lower, the issue is you build a culture first, profit performance follow.

Eric: Beautiful well thank you so much for joining us on SoCap Talks, it has been an absolute pleasure.

Gustavo: My pleasure. Thank you so much to both of you

Devon: Thank you.

Eric: Thank you.

 

EPISODE 7 – How to Create a Mission-Driven Company Culture

SoCap Talks with Devon Kerns, Eric Sutfin, and Maurice Washington

The definition of alignment is the arrangement in a straight line, or in correct or appropriate relative positions. When it comes to Maurice Washington, alignment is more along the lines of knowing yourself, and isn’t as straightforward as one may think. Alignment takes handwork; it takes learning from past experiences and really committing to something 100%. According to Maurice, being in alignment means being happy, and for your business, it means great success.

The businesses that will succeed are the ones that have purpose, and that is something Maurice preaches. Mission driven businesses have the power to create communities and engage people further than a product or service could, more so they can better create loyalty around them. Acting with authenticity and intention will ease alignment, and with alignment will come the same great success that Maurice himself has found. 

After working in credit card processing for a time, Maurice got to know himself and found a passion for teaching and coaching. He is currently host of Executive Talk, a TV and radio show where he interviews a variety of executives and helps them develop and improve their mission based business. The show runs across 8 states but is continuing to grow and expand online as well as broadcast. 

Maurice found alignment within himself and his business, which ultimately lead him to some great success. Join Maurice and the team as they go more in depth as to how to obtain alignment in your life and better your business with intention and authenticity. 

> View Full Transcript Here <

 

 

Welcome back to SoCap Talks helping innovators build tomorrow, today. Now here’s your hosts: Devon Kerns and Eric Sutfin.

 

Eric: Today on SoCap Talks, we have a special guest for our spotlight feature. Maurice Washington is with us. He runs Executive Talk, a TV and radio show across currently eight states, but growing and expanding online as well as broadcast. So thank you for joining us today and being a part of SoCap Talks. We’re excited to be able to dive into some of the just breadth of information you’ve learned from interviewing dozens, if not hundreds of other executives and your coaching experience yourself.

 

Maurice: Sure. Thanks for having me here. And I’m happy to, you know, share whatever information I can.

 

Eric: Oh I’m sure there’s a little bit more in there than you imagine having you said 15 years right, of coaching?

 

Maurice: So ultimately, it’s been 10 years of being in business. And yes, all those years have been some form of coaching. It was my third actually my third year that I really got fully engaged into doing full time coaching and then lead into the TV show.

 

Eric: and that transition, what was it that lead you from running some of these businesses and doing some coaching into what you’re doing now with executive talk?

 

Maurice: Sure. You know, when I was looking at when I when I first started my business, one thing I do I knew specifically is I love B2B. Um but this is back in the economic downturn. Okay. In 2007, I was doing credit card processing, then I realized that my passion is actually teaching and I knew at that point, instead of just being in business, why not start working towards my passion and my passion, learning about teaching, has lead me to this place of being on this TV show

 

Eric: I think we all can understand the teaching element here Devon with a few years of coaching under his belt too

 

Devon:  Yeah

 

Eric: The key teaching element is where you learn the most right, if you internalize it, that’s one part but being able to regurgitate and teach and share that with someone else. It is a learning process in and of itself.

 

Maurice: Yes, absolutely. Go ahead.

 

Eric: I was just gonna ask what have you learned in this process, you have through Executive Talk a unique niche in being able to help and coach other business owners, not necessarily coach but extract in a coaching format, their mission driven and mission based businesses

 

Maurice: Sure

 

Eric: and work with them in a very intimate way about what they’ve learned, share with me a little bit about this process, and what you’ve gleaned in working and teaching and interviewing these individuals.

 

Maurice: Yeah, that’s a those that’s a great question. You know, when I jumped into teaching and consulting, you know, I was really exciting about being in finally I’m in my passion, you know, I love to teach I’m doing and and that’s all I can concentrated on it was teaching, teaching, teaching, teaching, but there was still a missing element, I couldn’t teach myself. And so one one thing I started to realize is, can the teacher be taught also. And with that being said, I had to actually redo part of my coaching and consulting model to actually see where in my life am I not following through, you know, is one was one thing to tell a business owner, here’s your plan for the next month, and here’s things you need to execute on. But then when you go to your own books, when you go to your own day to day, are you lazy? You know, are you executing? Are you making your phone calls? Are your are you good with your customer service? So those are some things I had to be challenged with, in which, you know, I think that was the biggest growing experiences can the teacher be taught? And can you follow through on everything that you’re teaching? You know, I found that the Do as I say, don’t do as I do,

 

Maurice: Yeah

 

Devon: Model works really well.

 

*laughter*

 

Maurice: Absolutely it’s yeah,

 

Eric: For about 5 seconds

 

Devon: And then they call you out on your shit

 

Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. And so that’s, that’s the dangerous part about being in consulting, it’s exciting to get into it and really help people grow. But then can you come back in and do the same thing for you for yourself specifically

 

Devon: right.

 

Eric: So when you examine that, having spent all this time and working with all these other people, what was the missing piece for you? Did you find a disconnect, and that led you to know what you’re doing and, and that gray area, that gap that you had to focus in and hone on?

 

Maurice: Absolutely, you know, nothing in life. So the missing gap in life is not is not the mental piece. You know, the one thing that we are we are keen on, I mean, there’s even, there’s now a new prescription out there to actually sharpen your brain, which, okay, fine, be smarter, accelerate, the brain is very, very strong, very creative, okay, you can do some things. But what, why were, why is it in society, we don’t talk about your emotional intelligence?

 

Devon: Right

 

Maurice: That’s the missing component in anything that you’re teaching. And that’s where I found the the primary source of everything that life runs on the emotional course. And then mental. So that’s what I learned.

 

Eric: Like, we’ve, we’ve examine that as well, you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and tons of time in between pre K, even kindergarten all the way through higher education, getting a Bachelor’s a Masters with the ultimate gain of being able to be successful in business with aim of then being happy, right? That that is what leads to happiness. That, you follow this prescription of being able to get the great degree, get the awesome job, get the beautiful wife, get the incredible house, get the dog, and then you’ll be happy,

 

Maurice: Right

 

Eric: Instead of in reverse. We spend a ton of time and money trying to buy happiness.

 

Maurice: That’s exactly it, that’s exactly it and so,

 

Eric: Instead of emotional intelligence and reverse engineering it

 

Maurice: Absolutely. So when you look at that pathway, you find depression at the end of that tunnel.

 

Devon: Yep

 

Maurice: That’s where you start seeing everybody go full steam ahead and get those things. You’re there. You’re there, you’re there. And all of a sudden, you realize one day, and you never know, until you have a day of rest. You’ll say, I can’t handle this. I didn’t know all this took that much.

 

Devon: Right

 

Maurice: You know, yes, I had the wife. But now I didn’t know all the needs that came with that responsibility. I didn’t know, the kids I didn’t know, it’s all these moving parts to life.

 

Devon: Right

 

Maurice: And then you’re trapped, you know, in a small sense. So that emotional intelligence to really understand who you are, and what it is you actually need is paramount. And yeah, you’re right, there is a American success success pathway that’s laid out for you. But is it for you? You have to really answer those questions

 

Eric: Right one size doesn’t fit all.

 

Devon: That’s right, there’s a TED talk, we just uh watch the other day, you weren’t at the mercy of your emotions, your brain creates them. And it’s actually one of the more interesting TED talks that I’ve seen in a while, because she’s studied for decades now, where emotions actually stem from, why they come where they show up, why they show up. And one of her key points is the fact that your brain um going back to your point around, if you increase the capacity of your brain, it doesn’t necessarily bring you any more emotional intelligence. And in reality, in business, especially,

 

Maurice: Right

 

Devon: in life and dating, it doesn’t really matter. Emotional intelligence is actually I’d say, potentially more important than your intellect, or your IQ, your EQ is way higher. And she was talking about the fact that our brain is constantly trying to predict the next thing and when you don’t understand. So as one of the example she used as if you wake up and you’re hungry, and you know, you’re hungry, then that translates in your brain go get food. But sometimes your body might be thirsty, or hungry, and it lead you down a path of anxiety, because you decide to send your brain in the predictive behavior of Oh, well, instead of my body, telling me I’m hungry or thirsty, I’m actually going to associate this to the fact that I have no money in my bank account, or whatever may be, and I’m not logically controlling the thought pattern, which then dictates the emotions and it was really interesting it’s a super great TED Talk.

 

Maurice: Absolutely, I totally agree with you.

 

Eric: So in working with CEOs and executives in your career, have you found emotional intelligence is something that they are very conscious and practicing, or that you that it’s something that is a byproduct or those that are inherent leaders, just it’s something that they’re practicing, even without the knowledge of knowing about it.

 

Maurice: You know, it’s interesting, this is an area where business owners, you know, one thing about business owners, and it’s another it becomes another hiding spot for business owners actually business does um for what we don’t know emotionally, that’s just, just how it is. So the business owners I work with, in my coaching, the reason why sometimes we we would conflict is I would ask them, what’s going on? Why are you fighting this, and that, that sometimes brought tears to the table. And because it was, those tears are all emotional, there was something there. So majority business owners go because again, just like you said, the brain is always constantly telling you, as a business owner, I don’t know what to expect, I need more money, I need to actually have five more sales just in case next month doesn’t work out. So you’re constantly in a worry state of being. And so a business owner is never actually comfortable, relaxed, or anything you see majority of business owners come up underneath that stress. That’s where you see the long hours is because again, business ownership, it’s a long gap of time, the fact that you can probably take a nap this afternoon, have some extra energy and stay up till 10, a business owner will eat that up claiming that it is preparing them for tomorrow.

 

Eric: Mm hmm.

 

Maurice: And so in all you’re doing is training your body for a different rhythm. Um so I find a lot of business owners wanting to get to that mission. But at the same time, when you’re caught of in the middle of business ownership. Well, now, you’re committed to your bills, you’re committed to saying to your husband or wife that, hey, I said, This business is going to work for us, I can financially support us or be part of with this business. And so you’re actually working for your word instead of working for your business. So there’s a lot of small details, that I find.

 

Eric: So this goes back to one of the things that you not only practice, but are preaching and working with other business owners around which is alignment?

 

Maurice: Yes.

 

Eric: And something you are finding is a keystone essential element for business owners to be successful. Can you share a little bit more about your perspective and what you’ve gleaned from uh business owners that are in or out of alignment?

 

Maurice: Yes, yes. You know, I, it it becomes to, it comes to a point of, you see, where people are either happy or unhappy. Um alignment.

 

Eric: That sounds simple

 

Maurice: it sounds simple, *laughter* and you can trick yourself into that place, I’m constantly happy, you know, and you can be stressed and be in a place all day long. Anybody can go to that.

 

But, you know, I find that the business owners that are enlightenment are slower paced, they are thinking a little bit more about every uh conversation meeting, what’s the purpose? And where is it going, whereas business owners that are not in that that emotional, or that alignment are constantly in the Go, go, go, go, go. Just reactive.

 

Eric: mm hmm

 

Maurice: So there’s the difference in the body movement of a of a business owner that’s in alignment, and not in alignment. So that’s so those are just some of the small differences in details I’ve come to see

 

Devon: Share with us what your idea of alignment really is.

 

Maurice: Sure. So it might show executive talk, it is more of a spiritual thing. It is 100% spiritual thing for me here. So alignment is actually knowing yourself. There’s one thing to say I’m alignment because I’m happy. But do you actually know that’s what you’re what you’re happy at being? And can you stay? Regardless of who’s telling you that hey, you know, it can come from the, your very closest people, which is your parents, husband, wife, your kids, even What are you doing? Can you stay firm in who you are? And that is actually where you can stand firm be aligned in that particular place. And saying, yes, this is truly identify who I am. These are what this is what I do and this is the course I’m going, regardless of who and it’s not coming from an area in place. It’s just, you know, you’re gonna fight for your alignment.

 

Devon: I found that Ekar Tolly’s book, not A New Earth, but The Power of Now was a really interesting book to help me understand what you’re talking about where really dives deep into the idea that there are two different conversations happening in every human being. There’s the brain and the brain functioning from the archaic caveman evolved.

 

Maurice: That’s right

 

Devon: uh safe, Am I safe? Is my family safe? can we survive dynamic and then the which we would define as ego or he defines as ego and the souls conversation and his story where he was talking about um wanting to take his life and gun in hand gun to head, he says, in a room by himself, I want to kill myself. And the question became, who is I? And why do I hate me so much. And that duality of that conversation went off in my head, and I went, Oh, my God, we take for granted since we’re five years old, a little bit before five, we don’t really have the brain functioning, we’re just coming usually from a pure space of spirit

 

Maurice: right

 

Devon: But all of a sudden, when we start digesting, and our brain starts absorbing all the things that we’re taught, and yes and no, and mostly a bunch of no’s

 

Maurice: Yeah

 

Maurice: we start having dialogue in our brain that we take for granted that there is two different conversations when you are talking to yourself. There are two entities there.

 

Maurice: Yeah.

 

Devon: And what really supported me and what you’re saying is knowing how to separate those two things

 

Maurice: knowing how to listen to those two conversations. And if I’m calm, and coming from that place of peace, I can actually take a step back, excuse me, take a step back, take a deep breath in, understand the difference between safety and security in the actual conversation of what my soul wants me to do

 

Maurice: Absolutely. I totally agree with that, you know, I feel like your heart’s talking to you on a regular basis. It’s like, No, no, no, we don’t want to do that. But your brains like no, we have to, you know, put you in that place. And all of a sudden, you’re in this you’re in this place is just, it’s like, again, another trap and your heart’s taking a beating on that trap. And half the time as business owners, we and that’s part of the clearing out and and part of being in alignment were partly You know, a lot of us as business owners may have came from a situation growing up even it could have been started in childhood where you didn’t have a lot, you’re moving house to house, not because you’re in the army, but because finances Mom and Dad, you know, whatever situation is financially wasn’t there. And so half the time you’re working, you’re actually working to make sure that you don’t have that same environment, not even working in that business, you know, and that’s what you’re actually working. You’re not actually working the business. That’s what I mean. So it can it’s a tricky situation

 

Devon: How open would you be to sharing your story? I know you do a lot of the interviewing, but I’d be curious to hear um where all this comes from, particularly in that childhood journey

 

Maurice: You know, and that childhood journey, um you know, my mom, my mom and dad split up um when I was two years old. And you know, I at that at that particular moment, the only thing I can remember is I had asthma, you know, I just thought, well, it’s dry in Colorado, I’m a Colorado native. So you know, that’s what, that’s what you alluded to, you don’t think that you have pain, your parents don’t say, yeah, you have pain from our divorce. And it was our fault. It doesn’t that conversation doesn’t happen in this conversation is not a punt on my parents, is just the reality of my lifetime. So growing up in that place. Yes, I had a stepfather I had a mother and then I had the separation of my dad being 15 minutes away from me, but still not knowing him. I didn’t realize that was a key component to my heart. But so part of my growing up and part of my lifetime, and part of my even entry into sales and business world was trying to control my environment. But at that time, I thought I was trying to control my environment, but I was actually trying to control abandonment. That’s what my business ownership all meant because that was my place that I was still I was still at that two year old Maurice Washington that was in pain. And so you know, again, the reason why I brought up asthma is that was a instant reaction to my to my abandonment. So part of this journey, part of where I’m at, per what the show really means to me, when it comes to executive talk is clearing up that even that pain and realizing that um I was in everything I did, that pain was always resonating in the middle of it. So turning my life around to the point where life was in the middle, my line was in the middle, and that was the direction I was supposed to go. And just being very cognizant of the difference between abandonment and life. So that’s really my journey and part of the reason why, again, my journey to business ownership, but then the revelation from going merchant services to business consulting, to now taking it to to this TV level, it has been all manifestation of learning what those moments were, and what they really

 

Eric: I think that’s uh, I think, excuse me, that’s a common trend in not only everyone’s life, but particularly in business owners, is whether it’s the control or the problem solving, to be able to create an environment where you are creating resolution, right

 

Maurice: Absolutely, that’s right.

 

Eric: We’re trying to create a solution. So I think this is a topic that clearly isn’t taught in schools, is starting to become more prevalent, and I love that you’re, you know, growing, and we’re even entertaining this conversation now, here, um nationwide and beyond. But even more important, I think, is the question that doesn’t get asked, which is, what’s the process that you found to align, and I know that’s a weird one. But it’s this constant journey, right? And you’re constantly problem solving. But what for you was the journey to alignment? When did you say, there it is, found it like this is I’m on my path. And I’m clear.

 

Maurice: Sure. And thanks for asking that question. You know, for me, it was it was literally three years back and I got so overblown with pain in my own personal life, then I was like, I was finally just sick of it. I was like, you know, no matter how many books I’ve read on seven habits of highly successful people, and thinking Grow Rich, and all these things, I was like, okay, those are all good. Those are all good books for the moment. But then if you can’t carry them through, they just make you feel worse.

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Maurice: That’s one thing I’ve learned this for this for my particular life. So the, the specific book that I finally picked up was the Bible. And once I started to understand what the Bible was actually saying, and how it was actually addressing certain situations, I was, I wasn’t even aware of, I didn’t know I had abandonment issues, you know, it was uh a my mom, when she, when they remarried. I was like, Well, I have a father figure here, but it couldn’t replace what I was missing there. So even that iota was relevant to, to my growth. And so um just developing that alignment, even just getting my my story together. And to actually understand what I was missing became paramount to me. Um because I was functioning, you know, I was having this process this morning, that no, no pun intended to me to any that’s an alcoholic, I understand. But there is a such thing as a functioning alcoholic, you get, your body can get so used to alcohol, that you can still function just normal, well, I was no different, I was just a function in pain-a-holic if you will, I just knew how to operate through it. And so part of that is understanding how to really operate in life, a clean heart and um really be in alignment with self. And so I can actually truly say, yes, this is the way and I’ve actually operated in that same way in the back end. So that that way, none of my teaching became hypocritical, in essence

 

Eric: I know this is a not a light topic, right? Like some of these are really fun and engaging. But this is important, right? Like, this is something that we all are seeking. Everyone wants to be happy, everyone wants to be successful, what you’re talking about is it’s not an external thing. It wasn’t, you know, when you got the one job or it wasn’t when you secured the contract for this gig. It wasn’t when you it was internal it was an internal process, it was the deep dark dive and work internally to be able to figure out that gap and, and solve that gap um and pay attention to that. And I think our society is yearning for those answers and they’re looking to TV, they’re looking to music, they’re looking to uh things that can put a temporary bandaid on it, perhaps instead of really looking and seeking internally but our millennials, millennials, because of the amount of information and we discussed this be millennials are more prone and quick to do that, because they’re saturated with information and messages. So they have to be able to use their almost bullshit-dar to be able to say, well, that’s out of alignment. That doesn’t resonate with me, this does that doesn’t, she does that music doesn’t. And so they’re even more prone to finding nonprofits and getting involved and doing things where they are in alignment in harmony, because it feels good. They’re, they’re happy at it.

 

Maurice: Sure. Um, you know, I I believe that’s so I believe absolutely everything that you’re saying. I think, you know, as a as a society access and distractions can keep you further away from the from the mark. You know, when we think about cell phones I was in I was at the gym the other day, we were talking about smart cars and how cars are coming to the point where they can actually start driving themselves. And, you know, because obviously, we can’t do it anymore. *laughter* That’s what they’re training us to do. You know, and so, yes, when it comes to millennials, it’s one of those things they they’re coming into a place where they have access, they’ve learned access immediately. They’re learning no patience, access immediately. So, you know, I don’t know, you know, I have a lot of question marks when it comes to because it was even challenging for us in our age group to actually figure out this bubble called life. And, you know, when we, I feel like when we get more this more access, the less confidence that we have in developing ourselves. So even the cell phone, I love it, probably just as much as you guys do, to get some things quicker. But again, in our time frame, we grew up in the point where we had to go to the library, we had to research it, we had to find. So that’s what we’re used to doing, and go find the solution.

 

Eric: The phone book.

 

Maurice: Yeah, that’s right.

 

Eric: I think, you’ve got a great story yourself, Devon, about your niece, I think is totally pertinent to this. I don’t know if we shared it on the podcast before

 

Devon: There’s a there’s a concern out there. Um I think generationally, there’s always concerns about the next generation right

 

Maurice: Yeah, for sure.

 

Devon: And I don’t think that that part has changed. But what was interesting, and now my my niece is not necessarily defined as a millennial. She’s at the top end of the uh Gen Z. And at 19 years old, now, 20 years old um she went on a trip to Lake Powell. And obviously, you don’t have a lot of access at Lake Powell in the middle of nowhere to your cell phones, or to WiFi, you have access to your cell phone so she could listen to music or whatever. But they decided to put those away and um they weren’t on their Snapchat and Facebook and Insta whoever’s, and she noticed about three days in all of a sudden they’re hugging and crying and connecting in ways that they hadn’t before.

 

Maurice: Yeah.

 

Devon: And while that was important, and seems obvious to older generations, um that that would occur when you’re so used to being disconnected. What I found interesting is when she came back, that entire group of people insisted on putting their cell phones away, which the funny part of the conversation with her was, we put our cell phones away, but it just doesn’t feel the same. And I had to share with her, it’s not about putting the cell phones away.

 

Maurice: Yeah

 

Devon: By the third day, you only had so much surfacey crap the that you could talk about. And you actually had to go deeper, you had to ask something different than the nonsense of how was your morning because I’m right next to you. I know the morning was. I said, you got to put the cell phones away and learn how to ask deeper questions.

 

Maurice: Absolutely.

 

Devon: And she went back and did and now their lives are completely changed. But what I think really resonates here is I don’t really fear for the next generation of whether they can connect or not, for one reason, the soul and the mind and human nature all crave connection.

 

Maurice: Fair enough, yeah.

 

Devon: And so while the pendulum swing to a complete space of disconnect, because we have these new gadgets and widgets and things, it’s actually creating a stronger craving to connect on a deeper level than I think has existed before because it’s been absent, and once they get that feeling

 

Maurice: Yeah.

 

Devon: It’s almost like they can’t let go of it.

 

Maurice: Okay.

 

Devon: and so they want to make it happen. Now, is that happening on a mass scale? Not necessarily. But we do see it more and more often. I actually do notice that five years ago, walking down the street on 16th street here in Denver, Colorado, there was a lot more people almost getting hit by buses, and now people are up and engaging and communicating while walking to the lunch instead of being on the phone. So I do pay attention to that. And I do see that I think it’s becoming more of a tool now, instead of a distraction. Yeah, I hope now the problem is, we’ve got the next evolution of technology, which is virtual reality. So now I get to go anywhere around the world. I could be walking down the street and sea monsters or hot women. I mean, it depends on what I want now, right? So who knows what the next level of distraction is

 

Maurice: I’m not going to concern myself because I think human nature and the soul will win out always.

 

Maurice:I gotcha. I agree with you, I like that.

 

Eric: Yeah

 

Maurice: Sorry to get off, get us off track.

 

Devon: No no, I think it’s important

 

Eric: I think it’s on track I think you had brought up something earlier, and we had discussed it a little more in depth about this concept of patience.

 

Maurice: Yeah, yeah.

 

Eric: And working with other business owners, you found this to be one of the things you unanimously that is essential for business owners to have success around with a high tech, fast paced world, being patience in the business realm, when things always take longer to get that contract, always take longer to get that next thing, that’s something that I’d like you to elaborate a little more on, because I think that that is very important for business owners to be able to hear

 

Maurice: Yeah, you know, I mean, the statement is, patience is a virtue, you know. So the key component with that phrase is virtue is at the end of it. So that means there’s something to that when impatience is involved in business ownership again, when you wake up, and you have because, again, it’s not as it’s the same as life, where every day you wake up you in one of my shows, and actually consistently in my shows and talking about this every day, and like, you wake up, there’s a huge question mark, as to what do you need to fill it with? What do you need to do? What’s the right decision? Is, was yesterday, right? You know, you’re going through this big question mark every single day. And so it causes you purpose, you know, like you’re talking about earlier, when you were talking about the mind, you put concepts into your place, because, again, the mind has to say, Well, this is what it is probably, just to try to fill in that gap that you’re feeling comfortable with. So same as business ownership, there’s not a day that goes by. So yeah, when you’re thinking about, depending on what type of business that you have, let’s say you’re in the service business, sometimes your service business is a two three months cycle that messes with your patience, because you’re trying to fill in those gaps with little conversations, little emails, little touches to see that 30 days come to. And then finally, that 30 days comes from you take a deep breath, whether anybody sees it or not and now you’re like, Ooh, that feels good. It actually happened. But if that thing gets extended, you know, patience is one of those, it becomes, you know, I don’t have time to be patient. Because, again, all this space, 30 days is a long time well you don’t know and you don’t feel comfortable for what to expect. And so, you know, it’s kind of like a throwing up a new, you know, like a builder, throwing up a new, you know, homes in the neighborhood. If that thing gets built fairly quick, then, yeah, okay. Now, you. So you got people filled in in there, there’s a new there’s a new area, well, then that same property starts having issues down the road. Well, again, impatience has you far down the road, you can be 10 years down the road and still have 10 year old problems in your business, those problems actually never go away. That’s why it’s better just to be patient. See the details, because your details, I mean, they say it all the time, the devil’s in the details, those pitfalls are in the details. So if you’re not concentrating on those details, and say, I keep on having this issue, you got to be able to find yourself in your business, why am I not following up? or Why did I not do this? What is, is there a message here, maybe I just don’t want to deal with this guy. Maybe I don’t want to deal with this gal. and deal with this client. There was something about this interaction, I need to actually learn because you can get so impatient, you start bringing bad clients into your company. Now, your company’s another worst enemy of your life, your own company, what are you going to do about that? You know?

 

Devon: I think that’s huge. We have a kind of a standard around here, mostly, because as a startup over the last year, we’ve been very, very blessed in our journey to have success. But we’ve also had this typical the typical trials and errors.

 

Maurice: Yeah

 

Devon: and one of the things that we really focus on here is enjoying that journey, and understanding that, whether you want to define it as patience, or whether you just want to define it as this is a part of what needs to happen. trusting the trusting the journey, trusting the fact that what is unfolding to your point, this person may not be the person for us, this path may not be the right path. And if it’s going to unfold, we’ve done the work that we need to do in order to make it unfold. Yeah, and what when we trust that on our end, and it doesn’t unfold, it’s totally meant to be love the process, get back out there and make some stuff happen. We also, you know, we’re all big on spiritual journeys and getting connected and getting aligned. And we went to a healing circle up in Boulder here. And one of the questions that was presented that has really stuck with me, particularly, I know, it’s stuck with Eric as well, and that we’ve resonated out into the world, can you feel as significant doing nothing as you do when you’re doing something?

 

Maurice: That’s right. That’s right.

 

Devon: That is when you know, you’re in alignment, right

 

Maurice: That’s exactly it

 

Devon: That was one of the most powerful questions I think I’ve been asked it all a long time.

 

Maurice: I bet.

 

Devon: So I’d love to know how emotional intelligence and has patience and patience has paid off in your world, and what have you seen sensor really making those adjustments and calling yourself out to make those adjustments and not being a hypocrite?

 

Maurice: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for asking that question. That’s a wonderful statement, that alignment goes along with patience. In order to actually have patience, you have to actually be in alignment, you have to know without a shadow of a doubt that, like you said, If I have nothing, if there’s nothing to do this, this even that, can I just still feel value and not go crazy? So the next year when you throw into your business world, can I say this is not going to work out? Are the the fact that we can’t connect on this conversation is not going to work out? Or do you trick yourself into saying, Okay, let me manipulate this conversation. So we can, you can come in alignment with me. And we’re here. No, no, sometimes it’s just not there. And, you know, that’s what I had to learn myself before when I was impatient. I used to try to work my way into the conversations and clients. And all of a sudden, I was like, can you please go

 

Devon: The tactics work.

 

Maurice: They always work.

 

Devon: The sales tactics can work, right?

 

Maurice: That’s right. That’s right, you can worm your way in there, because there’s always an open field. But then that thing comes to an end. And it’s a hard end.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Maurice: So again, without my alignment, I kept on following, and myself and to my alignment of death traps.

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Maurice: And so coming back to the coming back to that place of alignment, I, I’ve learned, I just have a sense now, of we you know, even some interactions with clients and emails, and I’m looking at trails to see no, we’re going way off trail it’s OK, if you go somewhere else. And, you know, part of being patient is also actually being truthful about your process, and what your business model really means. And saying that up front and actually communicating that and people will make a decision actually, right there. They either love you. And like, you know it, that’s good. There was a conversation to be had next, or you know what, yeah, that sounds good. And you never hear from them again, there’s the conversation there, but your conversation who was so truthful, and so patient that regardless of how you show up at the end, and if we do business or not, or at least you know, where I can I come from

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Maurice: And so having that truthful alignment or aligned conversation, communication with people has helped my business be more relaxed, be more stable because I’m bringing in the right folks that actually are truly going on the path that it makes sense, in my opinion.

 

Devon: I do find, it’s interesting. And I’ve been working with sales people around the nation, and I’d be curious to see if you found the same thing when, it’s interesting, because when I see somebody sitting across the table, and they’re being himself in the first part of the conversation before they get into the sales tactics, and

 

Maurice: That’s right. Yeah

 

Devon: and the clothes, this person totally believes and totally is ready to buy. And all of a sudden, because they’re uncomfortable with the clothes or because something’s going on in their life, or because they’re not in alignment, that energy is actually causing that person on the other end of the table to say no, the entire time, and they can’t figure out why. Because I really like this person, but I don’t believe them.

 

Maurice: that’s right.

 

Devon: And they could be telling total truth, but when I’m out of whack, it’s really tough to use tactics to sell. Because I see right through that. And I don’t know why. I just know there’s a disconnect here

 

Maurice: Absolutely.

 

Devon: I don’t really understand what it is. And my perception of you can now change because maybe I think that you’re lying to me, when in reality, that’s the only way my brain can translate it is I just don’t believe you. And I’m not sure why. So I’m going to call you a liar versus or that this product doesn’t work, or the service doesn’t work, or I shouldn’t buy from you.

 

Maurice: Yeah

 

Devon: When in reality, it’s probably a great service, a great product, I just don’t know that you’re totally out of whack.

 

Maurice: That’s right. You know, that’s I love that point, you know, it’s one of those things that you’re starting to see a lot of business owner or b2b, business owners like to actually discuss or talk to the business owner. And it’s not because the salesperson is not good, or not a good person, but you start to see those little moments and it makes you uncomfortable, because you’re, part of your question is, if you’re talking to a salesperson is how long are you actually going to be there?

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Maurice: You say that you’re going to be my contact, you say that you’re going to be here, you’re, you know, all the sales tactics are spot on, you’re a trained warrior. But how long are you going to be here?

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Maurice: and so, you know, it’s still you’re even, in that sales conversation, you’re still a consumer, because you’re about to potentially consume what they have to offer. So yeah, I want to talk to the business owner. And I’m looking because you’re looking for stability in that conversation. Am I, are you going to be there?

 

Devon: Yep. So in observation, I’d be curious to get your opinion, since you’ve talked to so many amazing people, I do see, and I get really excited by watching women move up starting businesses running these big companies moving into positions of power, because I think from an emotional intelligence perspective, they actually are further down the path of alignment, then I see a lot of men, as long as they’re staying true to themselves, right? There’s some that are trying to take over and act like what they were mentored to be in, in from their mentors, who probably were men who were out of alignment. And then I’ve learned to be out of alignment. But women who really are practicing that spiritual path, they’re listening to their intuition, they are killing it. And whether it be in sales or in entrepreneurship, I find it so fascinating. And I get obsessed with it. Because I love observing how they just stay in that space.

 

Maurice: Yes

 

Devon: and they have their own stuff, too, as we all do as human beings. But in reality, I think they will be taking over across the board, because they have a tendency to really function from that intuitive space and learn how they’ve learned really well how to have that inter dialogue, or inner dialogue, excuse me, with themselves. So have you found the same thing with the difference between men and women in your interviews?

 

Maurice: Yeah, you know, my interviews I have. That’s, that’s a phenomenal question. You know, I think when it comes to, so what I see women, yes, they’re absolutely they inherently operate from that place, okay. Depending on because, again, it requires emotional and it requires in order to be in that place, and be comfortable with that place, you have to be, really align with your heart. Now, the women who actually stay in, stay comfortable with their heart and actually move that all the way through, will find the most strength because that’s where that’s where your strength comes from.

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Maurice: Now, like you said, firstly, if that woman is trying to operate like the guy and say, well, we can just go into that place. And just, that’s where there’s another burnout. You know, and again, it’s not it’s not a gender thing specifically, it’s so men actually are in need to operate from the heart more as well, because we are actually showing a horrible example of not doing that. It is putting a lot of, and you’re seeing the end result of that. So it is important for both men and women to operate from the heart. Because, again, you’re dealing with human beings

 

Devon: That’s right.

 

Maurice: Beyond the sale, there’s two human beings, you just actually engaged in a relationship with somebody else. So it’s one of those places. So yes, it’s, it’s the engaging of a relationship that women are more prone to say, yes. Okay, let’s engage in this relationship. And that’s where the, and we’re seeing women flourish also, because people want that and people navigate towards that because they’re navigating towards that relationship

 

Devon: Right.

 

Maurice: And so men were trained, we go out with that barbaric stuff and try to be trained warriors, and we have a lot of casualties on the way you know

 

Eric: Yeah, we’re trained to put on the shield,

 

Maurice: That’s right.

 

Eric: The mask, to put on the brawn and not let anything affect us to not shed a tear, right to just to get over it, right? Be a man, man up.

 

Maurice: That’s right.

 

Eric: And that’s not how to deal with these solutions, especially when it comes to relationships of any kind, whether personal, whether their intimate, or whether their business because that is not your authentic in alignment, true self. And I think most successful men that I’ve seen in business, Branson and Elon Musk, many others are coming from that space. And we’ve seen and entertained conversations with our friends that you can truly tell they’re in alignment.

 

Maurice: Yes.

 

Eric: They’re, they’re not putting on a show.

 

Maurice: That’s right.

 

Eric: And it shows through their relationships, through their conversations to the way they run their business.

 

Maurice: That’s right

 

Eric: I mean and that goes back to the mission driven and aligned business that you’re talking about. And I think that is without a doubt the future of tomorrow, the businesses that will succeed are the ones that don’t try to hide behind this fail, but that are authentic and true and mission driven and will create communities will engage people on a deeper level beyond just a product or service. They’ll create loyalty and community around them. And that’s exciting. I think that is a trend that is universal. And I’m even entertaining conversations with baby boomers and Gen Xers that are seeing that and are feeling that they just don’t know how to verbalize it. But they’re buying the brands and they’re engaging, they’re talking about that ad and they’re wanting to go to that event. Because I don’t know it, It just, it just makes me feel good. It just resonates. They can’t verbalize it. But they’re doing it.

 

Maurice: That’s right. That’s right. I totally agree with that. It’s a it’s you know, we as society we look at each other from a man to woman perspective, which that means we’re looking at perception. We’re looking at appearances, we’re looking at and that’s where we’re, that’s where we stop and go is right there. Everybody is walking around. Because you know again, this is not to go morbid on you. But just to give you an analogy. Dust to dust, ashes to ashes, dust to dust, that’s all our skin represents. But what are we really? Really we’re actually two hearts at the table. There’s three hearts here at the table talking and having a conversation to everybody worldwide here. And we’re actually communicating to their heart right now. So that’s the power of actually communication. Are you communicating? Are you, is your business because this, it’s relationship, it is a relationship with your heart right now, your heart. And where are we coming from, with this. And everything that we’re talking about is, is deep, is coming from the heart. And that’s what we all represent. And this those who actually operate from that particular place that will end the race and end the race in the sense of burnout. Business owner you have that place of potentially burning up. Well, why because money will make you feel good as you know, to a certain level, there’s always always so much you can buy. And there’s only so much you’ll indulge with. But you yourself, you’ll see yourself all the time. And you know, it’s one of those things that the longevity comes from the heart. And nope,  no other place. So that’s where I see you know, like you’re talking about the women and talk about we’re men and being barbaric and stuff like that. It’s just, it’s just missing a lot of the point. We just need to come to that particular place. And that’s where your mission is, is right here. But your vision is in your head and your vision can get you in trouble.

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Maurice: If it’s the wrong vision.

 

Maurice: Yeah, that was a powerful statement. I literally just visualized the three of us and how that electromagnetic field that actually comes from the heart has connected us as well as speaking through these microphones. We are now connecting to all the other hearts out there.

 

Maurice: That’s right.

 

Devon: And it’s a completely different visual, visualization. And if you know and can see that in your mind when you’re sitting across from somebody, or you are broadcasting out to thousands, if not millions of hearts, it changes the conversation, just by seeing that.

 

Maurice: That’s right.

 

Devon: Yeah, that’s pretty powerful.

 

Maurice: So yeah, when we look at changing the world, you look at changing hearts. And that’s that’s just what it boils down to

 

Devon: That’s great.

 

Eric: Well I love how you’re changing the conversation, changing people’s hearts, making people more aware, share with the audience here on SoCap Talks, how they can engage with you where they can tap into Executive Talks and get more information with you and all the business owners that you’re working with.

 

Maurice: Sure. And thank you so much for asking that question. Facebook is always a good platform as far as where a lot of people land you can see the shows live on Mondays

 

Eric: Monday’s, what time?

 

Maurice: Monday’s at 430 is when I air live. And it ends at five o’clock

 

Eric: Mountain Standard Time.

 

Maurice: Mountain Standard Time. And it’s a obviously facebook.com forward slash Executive Talk. Or you can go to the YouTube channel and catch up on the old episodes on just look, look up Executive Talk, you’ll see me next to the stage in the studio smiling right there. So you can just subscribe to that and actually keep keep pace with everything.

 

Eric: That’s wonderful. Well, again, we really appreciate your time here on SoCap Talks. It’s been a really in depth and engaging conversation. I know it’s a hard one for a lot of people. But I know internally at some level, it resonates and it makes sense emotionally, if not illogically to them so it’s just really great that we can be able to continue to expand in this conversation and grow jointly here in this business community with this mindset so for more information about SoCap and these concepts these ideas you can read our website SoCap Talks backslash resources and tap into some of the smarticles we have there, our other podcasts and videos and we look forward to engaging with you and having you guys get as smart as we are *laughter*

 

Maurice: I don’t know about that

 

*laughter*

 

Devon: Thanks again.

 

Eric: Thanks Maurice.

 

Maurice: Thank you fellas.

 

 

EPISODE 6 – The Future of Marketing with Augmented Realty for Companies

SoCap Talks with Devon Kerns, Eric Sutfin, and Antonio Gentile 

Technology has advanced exceptionally fast within the past few decades, and as a result, companies are leaning more towards digital marketing to help expand and grow their brand. JuJoTech, an augmented reality and digital solution company based in Boulder, Colorado, aims to innovate the area of marketing by offering new collaterals and technology that will overall boost engagement in the marketing realm. Jujotech leverages a powerful software platform to deliver multimedia Augmented Reality (AR) content using powerful pixel- tracking capabilities. The future of marketing is digital, and when it comes to business it is almost crucial that companies are staying up to date with the latest technology. 

Antonio Gentile, president and founder of Jujotech, joins us on today’s episode where he breaks down the functionality of his new technological unit: the epub3. What is the epub3? According to Antonio, it is the future of digital marketing. It is functional, convenient, and most importantly gives businesses and content creators the opportunity to connect with their audience on a deeper level. 

Join us as we go more into detail about this universal device and the opportunities it creates in the future of digital marketing.

 

> View Full Transcription Here <

 

Welcome back to SoCap Talks, helping innovators build tomorrow, today. Now here’s your hosts: Devon Kerns and Eric Sutfin.

 

Eric: Alright, and welcome back to SoCap Talks. This week we are talking about the future of marketing. We have a special guest Antonio, from Jujo, the founder coming in all the way from Italy. Actually, that’s where you guys originated. But you are now Colorado based out of Boulder, Colorado, correct?

 

Antonio: That is correct. Yes.

 

Eric: Wonderful. Well, thank you for coming down and spending some time with us. We’re really excited to hear about Jujo and what that means for the future of marketing, its implementations and possibilities of what other companies and the community at large can be able to see and use Jujo in action. So uh today, we’ll talk really about the primary platform and, and the multiple uses of it. So can you just give the audience a little bit of context as to the different categories and the different software’s behind Jujo, and then we can discuss about where it’s going, and what the future looks like.

 

Antonio: First of all, thank you very much for inviting me over. And having this possibility to talk in front of this distinguished audience is a great opportunity for us so Jujo as a mission to innovate in the area of marketing. And this is very much in tune with what we want to do. The idea is to be able to offer different new ways to convey marketing of collaterals, using a technology that has been around for a while, and we can embed that technology with a dish and opportunities that would make marketing a lot more interactive and engaging, especially for businesses.

 

Eric: is this the Epub3 that you’re talking about?

 

Antonio: Yes, indeed, as a matter of fact, is the possibility of putting in a single vehicle, everything that a marketing campaign would like to convey. So multimedia contents, of course, video audio text messages, but we can move forward with additional outlets towards the 3d models, maps, interactive maps, and end like, the idea is to have a vehicle that is a lot more interactive than what we are used to, and at the same time, offer that interaction opportunity to the end user of that object and you right it’s an epub3. Normally, when you talk about the epub3, the only thing that comes to mind is ebooks because they were the sign this technology was designed with that in mind.

 

Eric: So for those that are not aware of e-publications or epub1 or even 2, tell the audience a little bit about the practical implications of a epup3, what are perhaps some uses or ways that the market has thus far used it or potentially could use it?

 

Antonio: Well, that has been an extensive usage of epub3 in it’s own area, the main area which is publishing, epub3 is the evolution of epub and epub2 to is the very first standard that was out the idea behind was to embed well known web technologies, and namely the html5 the CFS, cascading style sheet, three version and JavaScript into a single standard that can bring for the all the characteristic of a typical book, The forest spine, a table of contents, a set of pages, and so forth. Um, the other concept that epub3 brought forward is the in quote, staticity, the fact that the con that is actually done forever not to be changed, like we’ve been used for 500 years since the book has made its way on our own death for knowledge transfer. So it is starting from the idea of how you can do storytelling that we actually crafted around the opportunity, the possibility that the epub3 may offer in different domains, marketing being one of them.

 

Eric: So the the problem let me see if I understand this is, In the past, traditionally, you write an E book, or you write a book translated into an E book. And it’s done, essentially, now you just attach an ISPN into it, and you can start selling it, view it on your Kindle view it on your tablet. But that story never really is able to be continued or carry on you as a user. It’s just a one way street, you’re not actually able to contribute to that is that what I’m understanding

 

Antonio: that is exactly correct uh it’s a format, it’s a format it is another way to have a book being distributed around.

 

Eric: So with with your platform, all the Harry Potter fans could be able to comment or attach videos, they could be able to carry on a conversation, whether it be about a spell, or why Gryffindor should have won that game, right, they could be able to continue the dialogue.

 

Antonio: potentially, potentially yeah

 

Eric: or recipe books perhaps far more practical recipe books, people could provide their input on variations for recipes, whether it be temperatures or gluten free recipes, right? People could be able to modify and share their own input, which historically they haven’t been able to do.

 

Antonio: that is absolutely correct. And put it is potentially so with some string string attached. Of course, you know, the content is supreme, and so is the owner of that content so there are copyright issues that needs to be handled. And one way that this can be done in a secure way is using the latest blockchain technologies. So that attribution is certain and in any case, modification of an existing content can be done if the original content owner, publisher or writer would authorize that to up so that this becomes in effect, a new format you can use it is what we call an abmentable format, something that if the author writer publisher uh allow for then when you buy their format, you are entitled to do your own modification. But this is no different than what you would do when you go to the library and get your own paper book that’s your own copy. You do what you want with that you put you know, little notes, you can you know, highlight stuff and you know, things of that sort and you apologize, my hands but being Italian this is difficult

 

*laughter*

 

Devon: you talk with your hands as well

 

Antonio: very much very much.

 

Devon: Speaking of which, I gotta say, above all else, I wish we sounded as cool as he does, I’m sure to the audience with the Italian accent. We just have the boring English accents and it’s fun listening to you because I feel a lot more engaged and I’m trying to take in every word. So it’s pretty amazing out of curiosity explain a little bit more if you would what the blockchain dynamic is to that is it kind of approval across the board what is that?

 

Antonio: well, it is kind of a novel technology now is coming under the light because it’s bringing forward the opportunity for cryptocurrency. What blockchain does is an unbreakable and again in quote, anything that is under the sun on internet is breakable by me. But it is an unbreakable chain of documents that are fully authorized and confirmed. And so once you’re part of that chain, the entire history of that document or currencies change is kind of official I cannot be changed. So you can adapt that to a number of usage, one that is very dear to us is certain attribution so that you are able to know what modification that document will follow along this path. So this is important in this one contest there are others in which you can use the blockchain again, from our standpoint, the basic idea is that we plan to offer a new format that would offer in a number of scenarios opportunity for augmentation. So typical situation is think of a mother and she’s used to read aloud the story to the kids at night but she’s a service woman, and now she’s serving in a faraway country. So what she can do is she can buy the augmentable format of the favorite story, and then add her own voice recording to the story. This is not a read aloud This is a different thing, because now it’s the mother voice that you are adding into the book, you make it personal, you publish again, that book on your own terms and send it home and now is dad, opening the book and having the kids listening to their very mom voice, you know, within that this is one situation in which this can be interesting there are of course, other opportunities in storytelling within an educational settings in which a teacher can do augmentation to explain difficult concept so the kids can bring that on and have that available at home. So when it comes to storytelling, the platform that Jujo is bringing forward is attempting to go into this direction.

 

Eric: So the blockchain is essentially a security mechanism for whoever is modifying and adapting the content within that e-publication is it allows it to be secure for their changes, revisions and edits.

 

Antonio: Absolutely.

 

Eric: I wouldn’t say it’s quite unbreakable. I think if you give it to Devon here, he probably will be able to break it, I’d keep it out of his hands.

 

Devon: I’d break the computer by dropping it I wouldn’t break the chain.

 

Eric: No. But so we’re for authors, this has got to be really exciting. I mean, not only just for users, yes, whether it be a mom reading on travel, or vacation, or, or whatever the case may be, to be able to have a personal experience with their family and sharing that story. But for authors, this has got to be something that they can get feedback from, right, I’m thinking in a mark marketing application, uh very practical, if we were to avoid the Harry Potter idea of people contributing and go more towards the recipes, or even uh

 

Devon: travel’s a good one

 

Eric: travel, hiking, climbing, right, there are a lot of people in Colorado, where it’s very active, they want to be able to go and explore 14ers. And if you’re going on a 14er this weekend, and you can take some photos, and you can say, Oh, this trail was blocked, because of inclement weather, or flood, you know, wiped out this bridge, make sure that you avoid this now, users can be able to contribute as a whole or individually, they can keep it for their own personal use, or they can share to the entire publication. And that’s got to be really rewarding for authors. Because now they can get user feedback on perhaps what’s to write next, or what their users are wanting to be able to see for the next version of that book.

 

Antonio: That’s a that’s correct. That’s another possible scenario that you can employ the technology for. Um, there are other opportunities there that are related to the fact that you have actually a dynamic content in front of you so much as you add voice or text, you can add other things to the document that you can do that on the onset, so that the word book is a little tight for this type of vehicles

 

Eric: right. It’s constraining because it’s a dynamic book. It’s a living, breathing, evolving. So outside of the book classification and realm, share with us some of the things that you’re excited about as you’re exploring the possibilities. And as you’re conversing with companies, what are some of the uses that you’re seeing where this is going to change the marketplace, whether it be internally within a company or externally in marketing application, what are some of the things that you’ve heard from uh those that they’re excited about?

 

Antonio: Well, one of the buzzword right now is augmented reality and virtual reality, we all know about that. And the whole idea about those technologies to be able to offer a additional context or offering additional information while you’re moving around carrying on all your task. So using this format is offering as a new opportunity to bookmark bits and pieces of that original content that now can become available while we are actually involved in day to day activities. So we are developing technologies that would offer an outlet to towards augmented reality application in which the basic the basis platform is offering that context in situation where your geographical position is relevant, or depending on the type of access device you have meaning whether it is a phone, a smartphone, a tablet, or even, you know, augmented reality goggles. So we are developing uh interfaces that would allow us to browse and greed or in any case access this content in those contexts. Now, why augmented reality is relevant is clear, uh because you have the opportunity to um receive information that you may be interested in, while you are close to the act of using that information, uh which is different from anything else we are using the world of advertisement, right? Normally, you receive that ahead or you receive that out of context, and that is what bothers us for the most of the time,

 

Eric: right but here as a user, I have the choice whether I want to engage and how I engage. And if it can go down this rabbit hole of from one video to an article to promotional code to actually purchasing it, I can go as far down that rabbit hole as I desire, right, I think

 

Antonio: as a user

 

Eric: as a user

 

Antonio: absolutely being fully in control of you know, what is the course of action that you want take on the content that you are being offered. The point is that you receive content that in theory is supposed to be more relevant to you, because of what you are trying to do. Of course, that opens another hormone, right, *laughter*

 

Devon: to me It’s interesting, because the way I’m visualizing this, if we go back to that travel analogy, let’s say I really want to go to Scotland. So I’m going to pick up uh this publication around Scotland, I’m reading it on the Jujo platform. And as I’m reading about it, I get an interactive experience from other people that have been on that journey, I get to see all the hot spots. But then while I’m there, and actually participating in some of those journeys that I chose, out of the storyline, while in Scotland, I get to interact with the book even deeper. Correct. So and some of the some of the interaction in regards to marketing could be sponsored interaction as I am geographically located in that right spot. So that restaurant gets to advertise to me through the publication as I’m walking down that street that I really wanted to see the the, you know, traditional Scotland experience and that pubs right around the corner. And that pub has a a AR, augmented reality sponsorship within that publication.

 

Antonio: Absolutely, the let’s keep in mind the fact that with epub3 and those type of E-publication, you have those on your pockets, you know, we’re on your smartphone or tablet. So it’s really your property, and you can enhance them, you know, as you as you decide the moment in which those changes, those augmentation are pushed back towards the original content. That is when you know, the honor, the publisher may have a say so in that, but until that point, the new augmented the product, you are free, you know, to move it around

 

Eric: I can see this really changing engagement, right back to this travel analogy, there is both sides of the coin, that we got to look at one the marketer and the brand and two the consumer. But with the direction everything is going towards putting consumers first and being consumer centric, you could allow for the user to share their experience, just like a Yelp or an Open Table uh users can be able to not only upload their photo, their experience their reviews, but they could be heard in a meaningful conversation where now from a marketer standpoint, they could say, share this, or engage with us in this manner through this ad, and receive X, Y, and Z. And so now creates just another avenue for the consumer to be heard. And for the marker to get direct feedback through contextual advertising through engagement, and can actually be tracked, unlike perhaps print and magazines. And, well, this could be actually done through magazines, through epub3, you could track actually conversions and awareness and opens and click throughs through epub3 that historically haven’t been able to to be done, you’re it’s very ambiguous, you’re spending advertising dollars on a magazine or on TV, or Yelp. Without true awareness of what people’s experience engagement with your restaurant or establishment is, in general, whereas here, it’s hyper personalized, someone might be able to click on drinks wall and other can click on food, and you get to be able to track and customize those experiences.

 

Antonio: Well, that goes a little into the technicality on what for a market that is available on a platform like the one Juju is going to provide. Um because we are working mostly on web technologies, everything that we’re used to do, and we are capable of doing on the web, we can do into this new real of the epub3 in your pocket. So there is an opportunity there a real one and a big one to actually be able to capture, you know, what the user is doing with that content uh in a very direct way. So you are capable of analyzing and tracking down preferences this time on the content that is being used. And this may in turn, provide important information to the marketer because you can see what works, what doesn’t, and you can tailor in a better way your message later on, on on the grand The, the type of analytics can also be enhanced by another opportunities. Again, this is a web technology into a little space of a reader, you can enable a form filling, you can enable call to actions into your document into your marketing brochure that will trigger decisions from the user that you can analyze and take information from.

 

Eric: So where do you see this going? What what are the limitations? That sounds like there are endless possibilities in your eyes? What is the adoption rate because there’s projections that augmented reality the technology in the marketing is a multi multi billion dollar industry in the coming years, where do you see it going?

 

Antonio: Well, uh you know, augmented reality is projected to go all the way up to 120 billion dollars for 2020, uh the overall combination of augmented reality and virtual reality application is going to reach 150 billion. So this target market is really huge. And you can combine that with the opportunity of offering content for those devices. Now, keep in mind that right now, most of the fog use on augmented reality application is really into the mapping of the external 3d world into your view window, right, uh you’re viewport and therefore most of the focus is right there. How do I map what I see with what I want to superimpose.

 

Eric: like Pokemon Go

 

Antonio: for instance, exactly, our idea is to  define natural ways to interact in that frame. So that now you can use text videos and images in a way that are for once less secluding of the of the side that you have in front. And on the other end uh ways with which you can interact. Imagine, you know, viewing a video that is on the side of your site, and you have the need to stop it or forward it because maybe it is a step by step procedure to make a recipe, you want to fast forward, you want to go back and you want to do this while your hands are busy with other things. So the this is an area in which quite some research from the user experience standpoint is still needed. The point of having a platform like Jujo is going to enable the possibility of offering content in bits and pieces that can be used in that application scenario. Normally, you have your recipe book on the side, and you know, with your greasy hands, you have to flip through right here, you want to do this in a different way. If we go back to that opportunity, there are other uh opportunities that uh really would come from partnering with companies like SoCap. You know, we are very much interested into that. And we believe that some of the application of the this technology may come from real business cases that marketing agency can bring forward and we may have not envision yet in their full potential. So we welcome that partnership very much,

 

Eric: Share with me. So with the blockchain uh securities and capabilities, this could be something perhaps that could solve issues even on a healthcare situation, right?

 

Antonio: Absolutely

 

Eric: I know there’s a lot of security that needs to be surrounded. But if my doctor were able to see perhaps prescriptions or issues that were related to my hip and what was my documentation from multiple locations, as I’m, you know, traveling across the country, visiting multiple doctors and they could just have an ongoing profile and record of X rays and CAT scans and documents and information that could be one opportunity for something like this, right?

 

Antonio: Yes, and there are many companies that are also exploring directly that application area, because besides, you know, the security and certainty of the documentation, there are issues that are related with the privacy connected to sharing that type of information on the internet. So while our platform and technology can greatly enhance a conversation between the doctor and the patient, that is not directly involving sensible information may be you know how to, or indication prescription on how to be able now to follow better follow treatment, and the patient can, you know, collect their own journal or how the treatment is progressing. That is providing valuable information, once we start entering into the handling of the actual health data, the domain becomes a little more sensitive. And of course, there are rules and regulations that needs to be used and applied.

 

Eric: I think that is where the healthcare industry is far more established. When it comes to rules and regulations, we go back to just being able to view ads or companies that are wanting to engage uh with a consumer I can see in the coming years how equally while there’s not many limitations on use of that now, how that could become a major issue where you’re constantly being inundated with three to five push notifications, or a bombardment of ads that while personalized is just overwhelming and even disruptive to my experience, as I’m walking through downtown or a new part of town, uh well, perhaps that’s not necessarily your forte of what you’re doing with your just providing the platform, the software, where do you see the future of some of the legislation around this and the issues and privacy concerns that users are going to have and where marketers are gonna have to, you know, bridge that gap of what is too far how’re how much is too much information in an augmented reality?

 

Antonio: Well, I mean, this is a very good issue to address. And uh definitely, I’m not the right person, you know, to make a statement in that direction, there is a balance, and that balance, I think, must remain in the control of the user. Because the moment in which my site has been occupied with new information, I need to be able to control what information is being provided, especially if I am doing that while I’m carrying on, you know, other activities. And we know already that there are activities that are not a good match for this type of inundation. If you are driving, for instance, you cannot really be offer the information that are not relevant to the fact that you are driving

 

Eric: that’d be a little dangerous.

 

Antonio: Exactly. So I think that there is a lot needs to be done in in that area. Um, the reason limitation, definitely in the um opportunity for marketers to, you know, share and use that data once that data start becoming personnel property, right, my whereabouts and other things like that they are already available. And, you know, we’ve been um unable to limit the usage of that data as we speak, we know that for a fact, our phones are tracking as you know, the information is connected with a website you see with the telephone calls you may make, and things like that. So it is difficult um not to imagine a situation in which a better regulation is offered in that uh in that area.

 

Devon: So it’s not abused

 

Antonio: Correct, correct. Um

 

Eric: That’s why to that point, for those that aren’t aware, I’ll just share like when Facebook, right Facebook or Google, if you have those open are listening to you, because they’re listening for the equivalent of a Hey, Siri, that’s why advertisements will be populated after you’d start talking about hotels or whatever it is in augmented reality in this platform, I see in marketing that this actually could give more power back to the brand because now they’re not dependent on using these massive websites like Google and like Facebook, to be able to push media and content to your users. Now, they’re able to engage with their consumer as they walk past their storefront or as they hover over a business card or a myriad of applications, that is actually dictated by the brand not by Facebook or Google

 

Antonio: that’s a that’s an opportunity that is readily available as we speak, you know, that are these technologies are ready out the door and can be used to do um a number to realize the number of application in that direction, the brand has the opportunity to control a lot better the interaction with the final user, especially because their content is going to be actively deployed towards them. And a fragmentation is enable that augmentation means that user feedback is going to be collected as well in a uh fully acknowledge way. So definitely, there are opportunities there. Um yes.

 

Eric:  So most exciting probably would be retailers, people that actually have brick and mortar storefronts could have icons or augmented reality that drive people into the store, or even as they’re now shopping, instead of perhaps going to Amazon and searching for the best price are hovering over seeing a video or real world application of said product within their store. And then are able to look at reviews purchase and get the information that they are perhaps looking on Amazon or looking on third party sites anyways. But now they’re able to get that experience and that information right then and there. And so that’s got to be really exciting for retailers to be able to use

 

Antonio: Well, that’s one side of it. The other side of it is to use the same exact application in a combine um situation, which in addition to retailer related information, you can also offer cultural type of information so that the augmented reality application in those cases in which is subsidized patronized by a local authorities can be something that is offering contextual information and videos and images about the history of a place and at the same time, relating that with the time of the day, or the potential interest in doing something entering information on the local um businesses that are available in that particular area. So that you combine the utility of learning about the blade, seeing what is available to be seen with the fact that local businesses have an opportunity, once they know the people around to push forward they are on offering and this is particular particularly sensible for restaurant and sit for the licensees that can do you know, direct push in that direction

 

Devon: you’re living within the story, minute by minute as you’re walking down the street

 

Antonio: correct, correct

 

Eric: So I think this is a great transition, we’ve been talking a lot about external application and marketing and using it for the consumer. I think from a business standpoint, there’s a lot of application internally as well, that could be used around education, or within organizations, internally sales processes, right. Sales processes is constantly evolving, whether it be a new product, or a new food that’s on the menu, the ability for a company internally to be able to evolve that story and give sales people or servers a ongoing story about that menu, or about a sales process and documenting the relationship just like a CRM. But live, you see where I’m going here, Devon.

 

Devon: I do I see the whole picture of how it interacts and, and how I can not only engage with the environment where, wherever I’m at. But I can also see how it matters to me, because my story is different than your story. And while I’m experiencing this, it’s catered to my journey. And yet I still gain the history of the environment, I still gain the story behind the food that I’m eating, I still gain all of the information, but in a way that is also apply applicable to me. So the interactivity is actually a and I guess this is the thing I’d asked about the augmented piece. And the interactive piece as the data is collected according to the things I’m clicking on the experience that I’m having over time, let’s say on this vacation, the content then adjust not necessarily the main content, that core content, but the experience of what it might know that I care about. So in other words, I’m more of a history buff, it knows that. So it’s going to lean that direction in that experience, would that be correct.

 

Antonio: Absolutely, that is once you start combining machine learning, you know, and profiling in that direction, so that those tools start becoming a lot more of an assistant to you, right, and which is information collected, then can offer Once you are on the move, again, similar experiences. But, you know, again, we need to be cautious on that. Because, you know, we are also as humans like to change and like to experience different things seldomly, we repeat the same thing over and over again. So my point there is that the content is the king in this game. So it’s brand center their activity around valuable content for the final user, they’ll make those user part of the brand and I think that we have been ready when the seeing some of those ideas around with the videos and marketing campaign that Instagram for instance is a great example in the direction in which you collect those feedback and you feed people depending on the feedback you receive the epub3 is another opportunity right in that direction. So you have the possibility of creating content that is more engaging and using that to collect more feedback from your user base.

 

Devon: So I’d be curious, going back to your mission, your vision with Jujo, what do you get most excited by? What what are you really excited to see unfold from that bigger vision?

 

Antonio: Well, it’s a very good question we’ve been moving a little bit around because we started the mainly around the storytelling idea uh to realize that there’s a lot more to be gained to be able to change in the real marketing arena uh marketing is on not just dedicated to end user. But as you mentioned, there’s a lot to gain in a inside the business when you look for instance, for large businesses to their viral area, the value added reseller chain there you have opportunities because you can actually offer the concept of an evergreen content that can be reused repurposed and especially adaptable if adapted easily to the needs of the channel. So you have the opportunity to disrupt a um an area in which you know, technologies like the PDF has been King for the past 10 years, right, despite the fact that they are problem prominently static. Uh, so now there are for us there is a real opportunity in trying to push the adoption of this technology much the same way Acrobat and Adobe did with Acrobat, the, in the 90s at the end of uh the beginning of 2000 right? So that’s what we see there. And uh the application space is really limitless, that are also opportunity if we move in another arena, which is the Internet of things arena where large machine talks to other machine, and there is the need to provide information in real time to the people that have to maintain and handle those machines. So that’s another arena in which the combination of um augmentable content and augmented reality can really serve a big purpose as well.

 

Eric: I think that’s really interesting, we were just entertaining a conversation around our employment branding, and how empowering your employee is extremely important. And having a diversity of ways to be able to communicate and engage uh not only top down, but bottom up, right, and how I can see Jujo in this application would allow for we’ll go back to a retailer example, someone learns how to fold a T shirt three times faster across all retail places, that could save hours of time. And if they have the ability to record themselves doing this, and 60 seconds, it’s recognized. Now by them, they can be rewarded, because that was not upper management saying, hey, go ahead and fold it this way, one of your peers and colleagues are able to record this upload it into the operating manual or procedures on how to best do this procedure. And now everyone from either coast is able to see this information and implement it twice as fast

 

Devon: and that person feels recognized for it as well as now the company has intellectual property that they now own that affected that procedure.

 

Antonio: Absolutely,

 

Devon: yeah.

 

Eric: So as simple as that to as complicated as sales procedures and training. I mean, you could more or less automate a large amount of an onboarding process through videos and tutorials and trainings that ultimately are led by your peers and colleagues.

 

Antonio: Correct, and in the fact that is, you relate with those changes, because they don’t feel like detached and away from what you do, but are more coming from people that are doing the same thing. And you can leverage on that to improve on your own performances. So definitely this an opportunity

 

Eric: Yeah

 

Devon: yeah, for me, it’s, it’s interesting, because I look at the, um when we talk about internal uh dynamics within a company. So many companies understand that at a certain point, they become a living, breathing entity on its own. But with the stagnant and static issue of deliverable content, and that content can’t grow the same way a company can grow, you end up being paralyzed, right? The handbook the information, the intellectual property, the time at which information can be shared, become stagnant, when you go back to that PDF format. And it’s got to be written out, there’s no ongoing dialogue, it can’t grow with the company can’t grow with the culture of the company, it can’t grow with the vibe and energy of the company. And so as those things shift, which they do, when you go from 20 employees, to 50 employees, to 150 employees, and new products and new systems, new procedures, if it’s able to grow at the same fluidity that the company is growing, I see so much power in that. And that’s huge. I would say that that should be the number one dynamic of being able to utilize Jujo and look at it internally. Because that will then change your external messaging in the sales of the product and services and how it gets implemented into the consumers information is just an extended version of what’s happening internally.

 

Antonio: Absolutely. And we look forward to that potential to fully unfold, um we are at the beginning of this path, right? And so maybe

 

Eric: chapter one if you will

 

Antonio: chapter one. Exactly, yes.

 

Eric: So well, that’s a very exciting time, I think that we have just scratched the surface here as well, in this conversation, you’ve led some light bulbs, and we’re seeing uh applications that we could use when I’m sure audience as well as a bunch of ideas that they can as well. And I’d be really curious, I’d invite you that are listening to whether it be in the comment section of YouTube on our site, or within the podcast environment, share some of the practical implementations that you can see and provide Jujo some feedback for avenues that they could be able to expand in that we haven’t even addressed here. Because I think that there’s a myriad of them and a platform like this is going to be dynamic and grow off of that user feedback. Absolutely. We would welcome that very much as a matter of fact

 

Devon: and where where can they learn more about what you’re doing so that they can engage with you in and and

 

Antonio: first thing is the website so www.Jujotech.com it’s going to be available for everybody at the first stop in learning about that

 

Eric: you have a lot of resources, PDFs, videos, the like on there, that they can be able to see this in practice.

 

Antonio: Yes, yes, we are developing that and we are also um trust that our partnership will bring more into that direction, right?

 

Devon: Yes, *laughter*

 

Antonio: because we are a technology platform, a technology company. And so we rely very much on a those brains that uh put together content

 

Devon: Well, we we are very grateful to have that partnership with you. And we’re excited to see what the future holds. And I know you’ve got a billion dollar vision here. So we’re excited to to watch it unfold and everybody listening needs to stay tuned as well so that you can join their journey and share in the journey as well.

 

Antonio: Thank you very much.

 

Eric: Thank you Antonio. Audience thank you for tuning in to another episode of SoCap Talks. Stay tuned in and tapped in to ever changing market of marketing technologies.

 

 

 

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Cyrptocurrency is one of those things everyone is starting to hear about on a daily basis, but don’t really understand what it is or what it means for them.
Eric and Devon are joined by Russell Castagnero, CEO and co-founder of Wampie, Inc., a company dedicated to helping anyone doing business gain access to e-commerce technologies and bitcoin payments. The discussion talks about challenges and pitfalls of accepting credit cards as a business operating in the e-commerce space.
Of the $24 trillion spent annually in global retail, only $2 trillion was through e-commerce, which may be difficult for most Americans to wrap their heads around since so much of our shopping is now done electronically. But, as Russell points out, much of the world barely has access to traditional banks, let alone access to online retail. Russell describes other nontraditional ways people in other countries conduct business, from trading cell phone minutes to using NFC (near field communication) cards for small transactions.
The gang talks about the history of traditional electronic payment methods and the security pitfalls surrounding them. Russell provides the rundown of cryptocurrencies, disspells some of the myths and misconceptions about bitcoin and other electronic currencies, and describes the enhanced security benefits of these new currencies.

 

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Welcome back to SoCap Talks, helping innovators build tomorrow, today. Now here’s your hosts: Devon Kerns and Eric Sutfin.

Eric: Alright welcome back to SoCap Talks. This week we are having our SoCap Spotlight and joining me today is Russell Castenaro from Wampum and we have Devon Kerns as well joining us from SoCap to talk about Bitcoin and just bit currency in general. This whole blockchain technology is something that most people aren’t aware of. Uh, traditionally, we know finance. We know commerce, we know money. But this is something that a lot of people have heard about. Yet, even the basics, most people have no idea what is blockchain, they don’t know the how the transaction works. Much of this is very foreign to people. So we’re very blessed to be able to have Russell here to talk about one the industry as a whole the trends of where it’s going and two a unique solution that you have to the marketplace, which is even now a little overdue bitcoins been around for how many years now?

Russell: Since 2009

Eric: Just the end of 2017 so just really seven, eight years. And we’re just starting to really look at what does this mean for the industry as a whole. So we’re excited to have you on here and uh chat more about the evolution of what the commerce industry is actually doing. So Russ, would you share a little bit about your background and what brought you here today?

Russell: Sure, well, I for 13 years, I ran the company in Hawaii that did all the e-government and e-commerce and we processed a lot of payments so people paying their taxes people starting new businesses painting and you’ll filings getting married ordering President Obama’s birth certificate, that kind of stuff. And yeah, they really did. *laughter* And, and we were processing a lot of funds and uh to make long story short there um, there are enormous numbers of compliance, number of compliance issues that come up, um fraud was starting to peak, and you have all these problems as a merchant, aside from having to pay a lot, a big percentage of your of your take, you have all this compliance, and then you have the banks to contend with who are very particular about how you um will process payments electronically. And I realized back then, you know, as early as you know 2009, 2010, that if it was this hard for a company like us, that was processing by the time I left, we were processing 2.1 billion in payments a year um that for smaller, smaller players, it was a much bigger headache, and they were giving up a lot higher percentage, right. So if you’ve got a business that you know, makes 40% margin, then suddenly 7% of their of their money is going to pay credit cards

Eric: that’s a lot.

Russell: And that’s, that’s, that’s the difference with a profitable company, and one that just like scraping along or closing up, you know, so it’s, it’s about big deal, a big deal. And, and the, the, you know, to have a way of payment that’s as easy as cash or easier than cash has always been something that we’ve wanted electronically, but we’ve never been able to do it, you know, and credit cards, God bless them, they gave us the ability to do something um that would make payments and it involves a lot of credit going back and forth. But for the first time with Bitcoin, you’ve got a payment method that allows an individual to pay another individual or another business without having to go through any third party, anything at all goes directly to them.

Eric: So its simplicity because give well, convenience for the consumer. In the case of credit cards, the credit card is very convenient for the consumer. But for a business, it’s actually quite complicated. In between, what rate are they paying? And who are they going through? And is it Keaton? It actually can quite

Russell: Yeah

Eric: be very costly, depending on all those variables.

Russell: Yeah, with very few exceptions, uh you’d, as a merchant, don’t know how much you’re going to pay, um as you know, so you’ve got a base rate, which may be like 1.8, 2.0, something like that. And then there’s an additional couple of fees that go on there, that if you’ve got an Amex, that’s a mileage card that’s also tied to, you know, has a picture of your daughter on it, suddenly, you’re paying 5%. And it sounds like That’s ridiculous. But that’s not really a ridiculous, it’s not really an unrealistic thing to say, you know, but these mileage cards and benefit cards, they, they have really high rates, and as a merchant, you have to take them, you don’t have any choice

Devon: you kind of shared a story before we started here where you were talking about the difference between the cash handlers and the trucks that go to pick up the cash versus how e-commerce is actually interacting before this cryptocurrency. So kind of Let’s start with the basics. But I think the original version of e-commerce as soon as it became um uh something where they were transactions occurring through the internet and an online these electronic transfers of money, um start there and talk about some of the problems that are around that.

Russell: Well, boy, this you have to you have to stop me on this one *laughter* because

Eric: give us the spark notes version.

Russell: So you got like, you’ve got e-checks, which is like ACH. And that’s where you give somebody your check routing number and your account number. And they do in an ACH debit. And that is a super duper insecure system. Because anyone who looks at copy of your check can get the name on the account, the the, the, the, the routing number, and the account number, right. So anybody who’s ever seen you in your checks um can get that information. The I don’t know if you remember the old days, you’re not quite as old as I am. But people used to have their social security number and birthday and driver’s license printed on their checks. Okay, so it was just, like, amazed, we lived in a strange time I’m like, I, at least I did. But, uh,

Eric: that’s what I have my business on my business card *laughter*

Russell: here, I’d like to, I’d like to give you my identity. Can you please take that for me. But, um, but so. So from the banking standpoint, with e-checks, which are relatively inexpensive, they have very, very poor security, which is why the gateways into those systems are so protected, right, because you’re passing all the information and basically in one fell swoop someone could do and an ACH debit that with empty out your account. So there’s a whole bunch of weird fraud controls. And there’s a whole bunch of gatekeepers involved in banking electronics.

Devon: So that that part alone is interesting, because here we are, with the cheapest way to transact between each other, yet the most insecure way to transact. So that seems like a complete, um it sounds like, like a shitty version of what we what it should be, it should be the most protected way and the cheapest way. But unfortunately, it’s not the way it’s set up.

Russell: Well, you know, it is based on what it’s really based on is faxing. So it’s based on facsimiles, that we would have a fax of a check sent over and someone could confirm it, and then the money could get sent through the federal network. And that’s really it’s an electronic version of faxing. That’s what it comes. And that’s what the banks are really super comfortable with. In fact, they’re more comfortable with paper checks, than they are with electronic payments, which blew my mind but they are.

Devon: even though it’s totally insecure

Russell: even though it’s totally insecure both of them I mean, anybody can go order a fake check

Devon: wow

Russell: right so then you got credit cards which were great I don’t know if you guys know how credit cards got created but there was this guy who took his a business he was on the business and they went to dinner and he forgot his wallet and the restaurant wouldn’t basically give him credit so he had to call his wife to come bring his his his checkbook so he could write a check there and so he created Diners Club from that.

Devon: no kidding

Russell: really, really interesting and then you know, the rest is history.

Devon: wow

Russell: But But credit cards are almost worse in a lot of ways. Because just like in the banking example you give all your information right, you give your credit card account your name, the little CVV number on the back that goes through that all goes through the network um it goes at the point of sale right so if you’re paying in person that gets scanned by the by the hardware or they take it down, then it goes to the visa network then it goes and any any connection in between there then it goes to your to the bank who’s doing the credit card and they extend credit now you think bitcoins hard when people you’ve heard people talk about Bitcoin, nothing’s as bizarre and contorted this credit cards, credit cards, like but people are, but there was smart nobody ever tried to describe credit cards. *laughter*

Devon: that’s an interesting point

Russell: Like, there’s like two sides of credit going and there’s risk and there’s fraud protection all along. And they’re constantly upgrading the hardware to try and fight off these things. I don’t know about you guys but I get calls all the time from Bank of America. Oh, we’re gonna issue another card. Because we think there might be a problem with that batch of cards that you’re with. Yeah, no, nothing to worry about. Um you know, this has a l

Eric: there’s a lot of ways for people, whether it be at the ATM or whether it be in an actual transaction itself. I mean, you can put these little card readers over an ATM

Russell: Oh, yeah

Eric: over a gas station that

Russell: the spoofers

Eric: that steals all of your identity.

Russell: yeah, gas stations are the real big one right there. There they are. Not only where that’s where, where people steal it. But that’s also where um they test out cards to make sure so everyone has their credit card charge that goes through Florida when you’ve never been to Florida in the last 10 years. And you know, it’s fraud. That’s that’s like a standard thing.

Devon: So a light bulb just went off for me where I probably would have been really leery of credit cards. If someone was trying to describe the transaction early on the same way I’m trying to learn about Bitcoin,

Russell: exactly, exactly

Devon: instead of it just being currency, I’m sitting here going, oh no you just put your card and swipe duh! And that’s the way it was. That’s the way it’s always been. It’s never really been described on the back end to me. So of course it feels

Eric:and then they give them away like candy. You go to college?

Devon: yeah

Eric: it’s just Oh, yeah, no, just write your name down you get 2. You get to get 5% cash back and you get to get some airline miles. You’re like Okay.

Devon: but here I’ve been hesitant to dive into anything having to do with cryptocurrency because I’m like, God, I don’t understand it. But it is less complicated to understand than

Russell: It’s much more straightforward.

Devon: wow

Russell: Unfortunately,

Devon: that’s interesting

Russell: it was divided the people that made Bitcoin we’re super proud that we fought solve this problem, I say, we like I did it jeez *laughter* um but uh you know, but that they solve this problem. And they wanted to share and they were sharing with groups of geeks, and then they started trying to explain it. And as anybody knows, when you get people trying to geek out and explain things, you know, everyone’s like, Oh, okay this is cool. You know, they look away and, you know, they’re not, they’re not, you know, it suddenly becomes less interesting.

Eric: they call it things like the cloud. So, so simplify Bitcoin in your own words in this industry, for those that are listening to this, that really it’s still an ambiguous notion and concept what is Bitcoin? How, what is the solution that this currency is providing to the marketplace?

Russell: So, so there there’s a few parts of the most important part the understand is that there is a ledger called the blockchain the Bitcoin blockchain. And that’s what everybody hears about and every Bitcoin that’s ever been mined, every transaction that’s ever happened is on that Bitcoin blockchain. And there are software that you can download to be part of, to, to basically run the system right. And um and that requires a copy of this blockchain. So there’s, you know, like, I think there’s, I think 45,000 different nodes running all they all have their own copy of it. And so this ledger says, Okay, this Bitcoin came into existence here, from whatever event it was, and it moved from this location to this location, to this location to this location. Now, what it doesn’t have as a concept of an account.

Eric: So is this equivalent. Let me break down for the listeners and myself honestly. Is this the equivalent of allowing someone to say print their money. And just like on the newest dollar, there’s a serial number yet with cash, you’re not actually able to see, well, I paid you for that dinner that you spotted me on the other night. And then you went across the street to 711 and bought you know, a soda you don’t get to be able to actually follow the currency in a cash transaction. Yet, in Bitcoin, what you’re talking about is you get to see each piece that it touched from the printing to where it’s being passed, is that correct?

Russell: Yeah. So you’re, you’re, you were talking about was more like credit, right? Because you have to maintain people’s accounts to know who owes who, right. And with, with, with Bitcoin, you really only have value and location. So you can think of it as either um an infinite wall of cubbies, you know, there’s mail cubbies again, like at work you know, you have or you can think of it as treasures as like as like Internet treasure treasure john treasure chests and, uh and basically all the addresses are public anyone can look in any address, they know how much is in it the can even see where it came from, or where where anything went. They don’t know who controls it, right? Because um there’s only this idea of, of, of a location and address. And then you have a secret key that unlocks that address. So if you’ve got that secret key, then basically the math you can do the decryption. But then you can unlock that and move it to someplace else. You have a PO box, but you don’t know that PO box is associated with

Russell: right

Eric: John Doe.

Russell: Correct.

Devon: And it’s a clear PO box

Russell: that you can look into

Devon: that I can look into

Russell: And you can actually look into the history and see, oh, like, oh, six months ago, this went in there, and then went out and there was some more that came in. And, you know,

Devon: but you don’t know that. That’s Eric’s, you just know that that’s the locker number

Russell: right

Devon: With that currency.

Russell: Right. And, and to make things just a little more complicated. Rarely do you reuse addresses, you’ll use them for one purpose. And then once you’ve once you’ve emptied an address, typically it stays empty, you know, they the wallet so what the software like most people use software based wallet to keep track of these addresses and these passwords and all of that wallet does a wallet in the Bitcoin world doesn’t hold any money hold any value, it has your addresses and your secret codes that you have have control over. And then what it’ll do is it’ll go and say, Oh, these are all the dresses I have. It goes to the blockchain sees how much that is, gets the value of Bitcoin, if you want us, you know, tells you how many you have in Bitcoin. Or if you want to see how much you have in US dollars like you’re using a copay wallet or something like that. It goes and gets the exchange does the math and shows you how much you have, but you may have two addresses, you may have 500 addresses um that are being maintained by that wall in any given time. But it’s all seamless to you as a user, right, just as seamless as a credit card is you know.

Eric: yeah. So there’s a bunch of cryptocurrencies that are evolving there’s Bitcoin, there’s a myriad of them seemingly where people are saying I’m buying them on a sense right now. Right so I’m dollar yet we’re seeing crypto at this point is north of $17,000 per coin,

Devon: bitcoin

Eric: bit for a Bitcoin share with us kind of the different types of currencies or coins that exist out there, what what is the difference? Are they just like the euro and the American dollar? Or could you break that down for us as well?

Russell: Yeah, I think that one of the most interesting things for me about different crypto, right, is that in a currency, you have fiscal and monetary policy, right, that you can exercise. So, um you know, previous the last election, you know, you had this idea that there was there was going to be a certain way that funds were managed that we weren’t going to default on on loans as a country. *laughter* Yeah, yeah, there were the I’m just saying that they were going to, but that we don’t really know like, well, maybe when he’s he said a few times, like, well, maybe we’ll just default, you know, so, yeah, that’s, it’s kind of weird, you know, so I wanted to make that caveat. Not

Devon: In SoCap you don’t have to, but maybe for the listener, I don’t know but whatever

Russell: yeah know, but but so, so, you know, basically, currencies are are stay more and more stable, depending on a few things. And one of them is how reliable their history is of doing policy and monetary policy now, um so the difference between that, and cryptocurrency is it’s in the code so you can’t change the monetary policy there are a set number of bitcoins that is the limit and every every 10 minutes right now there’s a new 12 and a half bitcoins that get Minton awarded to a minor that does a certain blocks that’s how you get more Bitcoin into the into the money supply right

Devon: up to a certain threshold?

Russell: up to so and that will get cut in half at the next halving event half again and then it will stop sometime in the early 20s, it will stop and so there won’t be any new bitcoins coming and that’s why people say it’s like a deflationary currency as opposed to, you know, you at most, most other currencies, you print more, the value of the currency relative to products goes down, because there’s more in circulation, there’s not necessarily more demand in the United States, we’re lucky that we have a reserve currency, right, so that gives us a lot more stability. We can go around printing dollars more than say the, you know, they could with euros, or they could with the yen or, you know, some other currency certainly, like look at Zimbabwe, or Venezuela or something like that. They nobody wants their currencies, right? So they’re there, they don’t really have a lot that they can do with fiscal policy. So that’s the biggest difference is that in a way a cryptocurrency is more reliable from a from a how it’s being managed standpoint then than a normal fiat currency. That’s a state sponsored currency. That makes sense.

Devon: Yeah

Eric: yeah I think what’s interesting about currencies that just struck me is this concept of to what percentage or degree something like cash or digital currencies are being used. And I think you have a little bit more to say on that. But we had talked with a another client recently that was saying in India, their currency has been a massive issue because in perhaps it wasn’t India minded.

Russell: They got rid of those big bills, right

Eric: okay, they got rid of the 50s and hundreds equivalently in the US because large bills were being used for things like drugs and the and the sex and trade and all of that that’s going on. And thus, they just essentially eliminated them so anybody that had money under the couch or the high reserves essentially lost their net worth

Russell: and the way they did was over a very short period of time.

Eric: Yeah, they wanted to be able to track what’s actually being going on that way is not underground.

Russell: Yeah, you know, one of the things I think that uh a lot of the more libertarian set and I think even I wouldn’t say I’m a libertarian set, but I I agree is that banking and electronic commerce Electronic Funds has sort of, like mutated into this enforcement arm of governments, uh which, you know, I think that that it was, you know, a lot in a lot of ways it helps you know, having having national currencies really helped the development things, rather than having a separate currency in each bank, which is, you know, 150 years ago, 100 years ago, you had that different banks, you know, having their own currencies, it was a lot more stable, but when they started um enforcing law through currency, um that made it a lot more difficult because, you know, um that’s what’s happening with the cannabis industry, right? That’s what happens with uh you know, all sorts of different different industries and different countries um you know, maybe you’re um trying to you know, talk about really important social issues and the government doesn’t want to they can lock down your bank and I don’t know if you’ve ever had like even um to have a government official closed down your bank there’s at least some sort of their sort of due process do but a bank somebody you know, a regulator makes a call to a bank, they can just shut your account down with with no due process. So it’s, it’s a it’s a kind of a scary, scary world out there, if you think about the fact that yes, our money is great, but that depends that actually depends on your country, respecting privacy and not wanting to enforce too much through through through its currency.

Devon: So what what are government’s going to do now I mean, at the end of the day, if this in as this becomes more and more um predominant in our society, I can’t imagine a government not wanting to control this because of exactly what you just said, they now lose that power. And fortunately for us, that would be great. Unfortunately for them, which I’m not sure they’re willing to deal with um the loss of that power and the loss of that control for many different reasons, some good some bad What do you think governments are going to do about this new currency?

Russell: Well, I mean, there are there are many good things about cryptocurrencies that that people don’t really talk about a lot but but that cryptocurrencies are more traceable than cash, and there is a hell of a lot more so, in any given 10 days, there is more, you know, more more US dollar based crime paid for with cash US dollars, than in the year of Bitcoin

Devon: right

Russell: right. So, it’s a, you know, they can actually have a chance tracking down people who are who are using Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies um for illegal activities. But that’s still a fraction of what’s being spent, I think you said, what, what is the percentage of what is still across the world done in cash, because in the US, certainly in Europe we’re trending more to e-commerce in digital solutions. But I was astounded at the percentage

Russell: right

Eric: I mean trillions are still done.

Russell: So, so yeah, so so an e-marketer does annual reports of the, the retail market worldwide, and I think last year their report was was $24 trillion market. So 24 trillion with a T dollars in the retail market, uh the amount of that that was paid for electronically was $2 trillion. Right.

Devon: Wow.

Russell: So that’s less than 10% is happening is being paid for electronically is being used with e-commerce. And it’s like, as, as the American you know, especially like white male Americans earlier, we’re like in the driver seat right now.

Devon: Yeah

Russell: we like to say that has got to be wrong. But um if you ever been to another country, and you’ve ever talked to people about getting banks even in I was in Barbados um just this summer and they have around 20% of their population has banking, they have to go through a whole process to get to get a bank and, and and um if you live in a remote area where there’s no banking you don’t have a bank

Eric: sure

Russell: and that’s why the first really successful uh digital currencies that came have come out of Africa uh with like bit pace and stuff. And so what they’ll do, I went to adopted my daughter from Swaziland and we went a couple of a couple years ago to go back to Swaziland and everything. And you could go to a person who was wearing a vest with the name of the of the, of the telephone company. And you could just go buy minutes from them. And then you could pay for everything by sending minutes via text.

Eric: minutes were

Russell: minutes were currency, right? So they’ll give you you know, and it’s fascinating. Now, it’s a Have you guys ever been to Japan?

Eric: I have not

Russell: So in Japan, they have a thing called suica cards, their value cards there, there are FID things and you just go are there. They’re Near Field Communication stuff, actually. And so you go over the, the, like in the in the terminal and the train terminal, you just put your card over it, and it detects the money and you go, and this is

Eric: it’s essentially Apple Pay.

Russell: Well, far before Apple Pay. And it’s and it’s actually not because Apple Pay depends on some other stuff, too. It’s a very low, low low security thing. But just like the text is that the text messaging SMS in minutes, but it’s convenient. And there’s a very low risk because you’re not going to put $10,000 on your suica card. You’re not going to send 10,000 minutes, right? So if you lose, it’s like losing cash, right?

Devon: yeah I’ve lost $5 bill,

Russel: and you’re ah damn, or that $20 bill blew away. Well, that sucks, you know, but it’s not $3,000

Eric: yeah we’ve spent $20 on a lot of stupid things *laughter*

Devon: we did have. Yeah, that was a campaign we were gonna do for a while and, all the dumb things you can do with 20 bucks.

Russell: Yeah, but but so. So the point for that is that there’s a huge, huge need for electronic payments, because they simplify everything. And there’s a and that need is not going to be served by banks. Not that there’s nothing wrong with banks. Banks are great for people who can use them and who want to, but depending on banking to serve the unbanked is kind of like, um you know, depending on the foxes to take care of the chickens. It’s just not, you know, it’s just not gonna happen.

Devon: Yeah

Eric: I read that.

Russell: a fox should be a fox a chicken should be a chicken but you know that we have to have a way to allow the 90% of the transactions in the world to be paid for electronically.

Devon: Yeah

Russell: that doesn’t require this third party relationship on both sides.

Eric: So that is exactly what you’re solving with Wampum.

Russell: Right. Right. So. So we provide software called Wampum register, and it acts as essentially like a till for a business. And it allows them to accept cryptocurrency payments without having to pay exorbitant fees without having to worry about returns. It’s just like getting a cash payment. If you do if people say, Oh, how do you do a refund? Well, you do a refund the same way you do a cash refund, you send them back some Bitcoin, you send them, give them some cash, it’s all very, it’s very straightforward. And you don’t have to worry about um especially the high fees and the charge backs for if you if you happen to be in an industry that’s like, uh um you know, going after tourists, or there’s something that people can get from you and now and just be gone and not have any way for you to to contact them again, those are typically higher businesses, from a credit card standpoint, they might pay anywhere from five to 22% interest, not interest but that’s their credit card fee, that they’ll they’ll essentially pay and, you know, that’s crazy that there are businesses that do this, and there’s no, there’s no need. And at the same time, there’s people who it’s a small, small percentage of people, I think 30% of people in the United States are totally unbanked. And then there’s about 20% more that are under banked and those are the ones that are served by going to Walmart and getting doing their e-commerce by getting buying cash cards.

Devon: yeah

Russell: right? And they’re paying five bucks to reload their cash card that they’re putting 50 bucks on. So you figure out whether that’s fair, um and then you got people who are, you know, work come here, they work and they’re trying to send money back across, you know, to wherever they’re from, if they’re from Mexico, or I was in I used to live in Hawaii, they’re going back all over Polynesia, you know, they’re sending money back there and they’re paying maybe to send $80 back they’re paying 15 bucks on this side and maybe 10 bucks on the other side.

Devon: Yeah

Russell: to get 80 dollars it’s crazy. It’s highway robbery.

Devon: Yeah

Russell: you know, and and Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are totally making it so that is no longer required.

Devon: interesting

Russell: And, and I think, you know, I bounced around a lot, so I didn’t, I only half answered like, I think 60% of your questions.

Eric: that’s our fault *laughter*

Russell: But like one of the things says, Why would a country ever want to embrace

Devon: right

Russell: Bitcoin? Well, because they’ve already lost the ability to have any monetary policy. So you look at, you know, Zimbabwe right? They’re, you know, they’re not, they’re not making any any headway there. It’s a total loss. So maybe for them, the idea of a currency that can fluctuate, 10% in the day is like a dream, because they’re guaranteed to lose 20%, every time they wake up right with hyperinflation, uh you know, there you know. So it’s just with Bitcoin you can take like this sort of Russell sort of, like, dystopian fantasy, right? Where you have maybe the top the bottom 10 currencies in the world are uh there you know, they realized there’s destabilize. So a few of them start saying, you know, we’re going to just switch to cryptocurrency so they’re going to, let’s call it Bitcoin, whenever suddenly, that cryptocurrency is more widely held. And unlike, unlike like a weird asset that puts together bad assets like you know, that started the whole credit credit default swap and stuff that we went through in 2008 um when you actually improve the currency because it’s more widely held and it provides some stability to an economy and that’s why for a long time the in I said Zimbabwe a lot I’ve been in the news a lot, you could buy bitcoin, if you wanted to buy bitcoin in Zimbabwe, it was about 25% premium. So if you knew somebody in Zimbabwe, you could just send them Bitcoin, they could sell it and you could make 25% right there.

Devon: Wow.

Eric: So we’ve been talking about some international use and uh bitcoins and this cryptocurrency but there’s a lot of practical uses for it here in Colorado, and in the United States, in general. Surely, internationally, there’s a lot of benefits, but what you’re talking about applies to some of these growing and emerging industries like marijuana.

Russell: Sure.

Eric: here in Colorado, we’ve heard of stories and have friends who literally will buy storage units and volts to put millions of dollars in there because they can’t bank they can’t get go to a credit union. So share with us. How does cryptocurrency provide a solution? And what is the trend to look like for uh companies in at least the marijuana space?

Russell: Well, I gotta say this you’ve not lived until you’ve seen a bricked and a bricked, what’s it called pallet of cash like that seeing one in person myself was the most mind blowing experience was like wait, how much is this?

Eric: You feel like the Joker from Batman you’re like *evil laugh*

Russell: You know of course they’re these big armed guards there all around, But um, so you don’t quite feel like that. *laughter* You know what me worry? No, but uh *laughter*

Devon: that’s a big gun

Russell: Yeah *laughter* but uh, um. You know, they they desperately even you know Colorado’s way ahead of the game um in the cannabis industry because at least they have banks they have some place to store their money but they don’t have a way to accept their money they have they have a few options um but they require banking on both sides right

Eric: and just Oregon Trail like barter and trade he’s Oh yeah, I’ve got 10 pounds of flour

Russell: *laughter* that will give you a very very loose joint *laughter*

Russell: But you know, there’s no way for them right now. They can’t take credit cards. Because um credit cards require it goes through an acquiring bank and the acquiring banks are all federally regulated. Um uh the same problem with with even with, some of them have a cashless debit cards. So you can use your debit card. Those are even that people are more more and more afraid to install those because um they’re based on interpretations. And everybody’s afraid of how the federal government’s going to be interpreting this stuff. Um cash is okay, because cash transactions are um they’re not involving a financial transaction until you do your deposit.

Devon: yeah

Russell: So what you know, that was one of the first areas that we thought go in, we show them how easy it is to accept electronic payments. And they don’t have to have big guards um carrying duffel bags full of cash to make payments. You know, in Colorado, you’ve got people doing duffle bags full of cash to go deposit to the bank, but in California and in Oregon, and other places, you’ve got them every single payment they make is a drop and they have to have a guard doing. Can you imagine how expensive that is? How about you know how about, you know, your pay your pay your rent, so you got a decent sized maybe you’re paying $10,000 a month in rent, and they’re gonna go drop it off 10,000 bucks

Devon: every time.

Russell: No, they won’t take it because it’s too big of a risk. So they’ll either make you take it to their bank and the bank will charge you or you’ll go and get I’ve heard of the heart of these guys going and getting as many um money orders as possible. Like it’s 1500 dollars is like the money or the limit. So they’ll they’ll go and they’ll try to pay their taxes every day with money orders because they can at least get money orders from you know from the from the um from the King Soopers or from the mail. You know, so they’re they’re being very innovative on trying to figure out ways around it. And what we want to do is give them away not only to accept payments but to make payments throughout the supply chain. So if they wanted to, you know, work with you guys they could pay you with Bitcoin, and it would be really easy it would be cheaper for you guys to just accept cryptocurrency than it would to have to worry about doing a drop and all that kind of stuff

Eric: or another vendor or whatever

Russell: yeah

Eric: but the then that brings up a point that whoever is buying said product equally needs a cryptocurrency so I think a lot of people are even stuck with Okay, I can go get a credit card. That’s pretty easy. How do I go about owning my own cryptocurrency and then do I need an app to be able to make this transaction walk someone through? Okay, say we’re to go to even target to be able to wanting to buy stuff with cryptocurrency, let alone a a marijuana shop, what does that look like? How does regular Joe Schmo go and start mining we’re acquiring Bitcoin to start transacting with cryptocurrency.

Russell: So um I think the first thing to remember is that um you know, the, the barrier for getting a credit card has already been been passed. But the barrier to get a credit card is actually pretty big, right? You have to at the very minimum you have to fill out a form whether it’s online or in person, send it in and maybe in a couple of weeks, you’ll get a credit card now if you go to a department store it’s a little different because they they’re funding it themselves but but in most cases you’re talking about the two week process from start to finish to get a credit card ]

Devon: if you’re approved

Russell: if you’re if you’re approved, right which goes through a bank and everything so just just to sort of remind people that you’re not born with a credit card you know it doesn’t go you’re not like given it as soon as they spank you right *laughter* so you’ve got you’ve got to get that and and and to to get Bitcoin you have a much less complicated transaction now um you can go Bitcoin ATM so there’s a there’s a growing number of Bitcoin ATMs there’s three or four different companies here in in Denver that are putting out Bitcoin ATMs all over the place so you can buy from there you can buy from a person there are websites out there like local bitcoins you can just find somebody you meet them in the coffee shop buy some Bitcoin from them still seems like sort of clandestine but but it’s you know we’re now like getting in people’s cars that we’ve never met before so this is this more and more acceptable there’s even like Abra and and AirTM which are other companies that will allow you to be oh excuse me to be a to be a Bitcoin to be a Bitcoin teller yourself, right? So it’s pretty amazing different technology then then the the least expensive but the hardest method is to go through an exchange right and that’s the way that most people start because they are thinking everything has to be done through a bank and um and they’ll they’ll do that so like coin base is probably the most popular, my favorite is uphold these are the the sort of consumer driven Bitcoin exchanges where um where you’re not desperately doing trades and stuff like that you’re just trying to to buy the buy a particular cryptocurrency at a particular you know point in time and you’re just going for the current price not doing that sort of trade so there’s a number of ways to get in if you’re going to get it from an ATM it’s instant if you’re going to get it from an individual you have to schedule it but some places may have like tellers nearby like they may hang out and just have people waiting to sell you Bitcoin um right now um you can do through like if you use USAA so the you know, I guess veterans a lot of them have that they have an agreement with coin base so it’ll automatically hook into your USAA account and you can have your coin base wallet automatically get funded with Bitcoin so it’s happening you know, it’s getting easier and easier the process like if you wanted to pull out your phone and set up a bitcoin wallet right now it would take about a minute maybe a minute and a half if you really wanted to read everything and and then I could send you Bitcoin super fast

Eric: and essentially like a PayPal or a Venmo you just essentially need what is my account or username to be able to then make that transaction?

Russell: so um, so remember that with uh everything I have is a caveats. Like there’s no simple answers. It’s a with I, you know, I use Venmo and PayPal but I think they’re lipstick on the pig because if you’re going to pay me with Bitcoin or with with PayPal, you have to have a PayPal account, I have to have a PayPal account, you have to have a bank account or credit card, I have to have a bank account or credit card. So then to send me money, you’re going to use my username and and send that through, or I’m gonna send you a request or whatever. And it’s all going through this closed loop network, right? With Bitcoin. What happens is, and I’ve got this, this paper wallet right here, this is an example what it has is an address, this addresses a really long string that humans can’t really read or determine. So there’s a QR code and a wallet will show it will read this QR code very easily. And so one of the cool things is all payments in Bitcoin are a send. So you scan it with your wallet, and I’m going to send money to that address. I’m not you’re the person who’s receiving the funds never has any information about the sender, right? It’s only Where did the address What’s the address it came from? That’s it. So it’s a really um it’s really clean, it doesn’t have any fraud issues, right? Because you’re always sending so you can steal Bitcoin, but you can’t fraudulently pull Bitcoin

Eric: so that’s how people have lost millions of dollars probably is someone do they hack it and just send it or?

Russell: most people have lost money in Bitcoin, because they’ve had their funds in what’s called custodial wallets. So um your bank account that you have um is is a custodial situation so you don’t actually have possession of any of the money the bank does. And then they you have you have basically an account that gives you withdrawal privileges, right, um so you don’t control it. So if you have an account with an exchange um you’re typically going to have a custodial wallet so your wallet you don’t have the key you don’t have a you don’t have software that has the key they do and they’ll send it on your behalf um I always tell people to use non custodial wallets like like copay and like airbits or they are their wallets so that the funds are all control is in your device or your computer or like this one is a paper wallet this has the this is what you’d use for the public and then under here this is my private key so this is what I’d use to move money around so you could give you can basically charge this up give it to somebody for a gift and now they have bitcoin wallet but um,

Devon: very interesting

Russell: yeah but so it so it so that’s why there’s like there’s theft but most stuff happens at a at a custodial situation. So these whenever whenever I people trade like my ex just recently bought a box and Bitcoin cuz she wanted to get in and I, you know, tell her Look, you got your money buy it Coinbase by an uphold. But then you move it to your copay wallet that’s on your phone or on your computer, you can back it up no problems, or you can have a hardware wallet or a paper wallet that you put it on that way, nobody is going to be able to steal it from you. Or it’s a much smaller target than going after the you know, $160 million that’s on that’s that’s epic Coinbase or that you know, they make themselves into a beautiful honey pot of money.

Eric: Sure. So this is all very fascinating What are you most excited about? You’re clearly in a super knowledgeable and able to see the trend as to where it could be going. Of course it’s up in the air there can be new players that come in and other solutions but in your eyes What do you see happening?

Russell: I see commerce being lubricated in a huge way. I think that I also I think is really we’re in this time when you know the internet for oh you know I the internet was was new and everybody was talking about Oh, should we use gofer sure we use FTP should we use HTTP shoot. There are lots of different tools and protocols to use. That’s where we are with cryptocurrency. Bitcoin is the first one and it will be it will be good for a while. It may not be the best one for e-commerce, um but I don’t know the beauty of it is is that is that people have a vote in what they end up using right, for it. So what I love is that once people jump into this wallet, this electronic wallet world. Suddenly, the functionality that’s in the wallet takes over a lot of things. So I tell people you have you downloaded the copay wallet. You have you have a little bank in your hands. Well, think about this. I’ve got friends who live in the Pacific Rim. They have bank accounts, and they have different bank they may have US dollars, they may have yen, they may have you know, different currencies, and they can move things back and forth. Well, in the United States, we’re all about the US dollars. And if it doesn’t, it’s not in dollars. We’re like, what math? But your wallet will do all that. So I’d say within five years, if I need to pay you $5. And all I have is you know, is Neo, my wallet will automatically convert that and get that to you in a way that you can accept it.

Devon: wow

Russell: So it’ll be doing all this. And there’s a great company that’s here uh um what’s it called? Uh, great. Now I can’t remember the name *laughter* anyway, that will automatically you’ll basically give it two addresses. And it’ll send money from one to it shape shift. Yeah, shape shift, and it will take your phone. So you can send from Bitcoin and I can move it to atheorium. I don’t have to go through an exchange, it just automatically say, this is the address, I want the Ethereum to go to send it gives you the target address, send your Bitcoin to boom, sends it over for you.

Devon: wow that’s absolutely crazy.

Russell: And your wallet will be able to do that very soon. And and that’s what excites me because um the barriers the the the financial barriers across countries will for all intensive purposes go away.

Devon: Yeah.

Eric: So the power is ultimately shifting it seems like the pendulum is uh moving towards the consumer.

Russell: Um I hope so. I think I think it’ll be more convenient. And I think that there’s certainly some power in the consumer, um it’s hard to say, Well, I think the power of shifting as to where it’s shifting to, I’m not exactly sure. You know, I yeah, I think consumers main power is is their ability to buy or not to buy. And I think that that having a currency having them not have to choose between one currency or another is probably a big a big power boost for them. So hopefully, it will be more power to

Devon: I think my advice around that is to understand currencies in general. And, and get to understand this, because we, we don’t learn about money at all, the idea that we’re having this conversation, we’re probably already way above most people, not because um we lack the ability to understand but because we just come out of the gate, and I got, I’ve got $1 for the tooth fairy. But that’s about it. And nobody explained to me where that dollar came from, how we really are in that dollar for the most part, most families. And there is a saying, or a theory that if you redistributed all the wealth in the world, that eventually the same .01% that control the vast majority of the wealth today will will control it again. So while this platform allows for people to maybe get a step ahead, if you don’t understand it, and you don’t take the time to have an education around just like anything else, and you think you’re going to maximize your investment, because right now, if I jump in, and I buy, you know, a single Bitcoin, that I’m going to be rich, or whatever may be, and you’re doing it for the investment purposes, without truly understanding it, without understanding our current system, and what is coming in the future of it. I think it’s true that those in power and that understand and take the time to understand currency, it’ll all go back to them, no matter how it changes. And so it’s the powers in the education I think the more people can get educated and thank you for being here. Because this is a empowering people to do that, um it’s the only time that we can stop that if we continue to be ignorant about currency across the board, no matter how it changes, the same people that have a desire to be in power and to carry wealth, they’re going to know how to go do that, because they’ve decided good or bad to capitalize on it.

Russell: Yeah, I would say that, the that you’re absolutely right, and the beautiful thing about cryptocurrency most cryptocurrencies as that they’re much more transparent. So that if you have the inclination to educate yourself, you can learn and you can really understand it, whereas it’s um more like current currency fiat currencies are more of the world of wizarding you know, and and the and the cryptocurrencies are more like the world of science, that you can really actually understand it.

Devon: Yeah, this is a big reset button, hopefully. But at the same time, you can fall just as far behind, because all of a sudden, a generation from now it’s going to be like the credit card where I just know I’m transacting with it but I don’t really have the education right behind it, to understand how to collect in in receive enough to create wealth for myself.

Eric: Yeah, I’d encourage, I think this is just a launching point for the listeners here, and the viewers to be able to dive deeper, there’s a ton of resources out there, more and more people are providing information about this. So the time is now to hop in and get your feet wet. If you are a business owner, however, and you want to be able to start accepting or having this digital cash register, you have an awesome solution, tell more people more about how, as a business owner, you can be able to start using Wampum.

Russell: Sure. So we wanted it to be as simple as possible. So whether you’re taking payments online, or you’re doing at the point of sale, like a store, or you’re doing even just make cutting invoices, and sending out bills, our software allows a supports all three of those modes, and it runs in the cloud, we actually we do it, run it as all least software. And we do that so that we can deploy it for you on your own on your own server instance, that we don’t have any control over. So we don’t, we can’t touch the money, we don’t have any control over, we don’t have the keys. The way that works is it’s like 200, $250, we install the software for you on an Amazon instance that we show you how to set up and then we perform any maintenance on it. And you don’t pay us again, unless you have a prepaid plan. But uh, what we typically do is the the most that will take for any transaction is 3 dollars. So if you think about if you have a business that the average bill is $500, you’re probably paying, you know, maybe 20 to $30 for that transaction. Credit card fees, you know, it’s now three bucks.

Devon: So for us it’s a lifesaver. I think we definitely need to switch over here. Yeah, because I like the idea of $3 more than 300.

Russell: And that’s just, that’s the top end right? gets cheaper from there.

Eric: And then from there, you as a business owner, have the ability to decide how you convert your cryptocurrency, right?

Russell: That’s right. So we don’t we also don’t, you know, we’re feet where we’re a crypto only solution. So what we’ll do is we’ll say, Oh, well, if you need to hook up with an exchange, we can hook directly into your exchange for you and send the funds there if you want to hold so our first customer is is this coffee shop in Hawaii in Honolulu. Called Local Joe Hawaii he’s just oh yeah, I really want to do this because there are all these tech guys around that wanted to pay with Bitcoin. So, you know, literally he’s made 700% because he just held on to all the Bitcoin that he got. And, and so he’s you know, he’s just like, Oh, my God. Russell, this is amazing.

Devon: And so not only was he saving money, but because of the fact that he’s in the game early enough.

Russell: Yeah,

Devon: he’s

Russell: Yeah, he made

Devon: that’s like an investment for him on top of it. wow.

Russell: Right and and and so when he was the one who first told me he’s like, Oh, you know, Russell, there are a lot of people that just don’t want to have to buy they want to buy bitcoin wholesale. I was like, What do you mean by Bitcoin wholesale like, well, let’s say only 1% of your business is ever going to consider paying in Bitcoin. But for you, let’s say you’re selling them something that you bought for $50 they buy for 100, you’re going to get $100 in Bitcoin for that $50 and you spend so you’re essentially buying it wholesale and much lower rate than you would if you are going to go buy it from an exchange or somebody else so I was like that’s kind of cool.

Devon: so along those lines, and before we wrap up here, you know, there’s a lot of people that are hearing about Bitcoin and in their mind, their biggest reason whether they understand it or not for getting any Bitcoin is because they see the opportunity to make money um and for it to be an investment right and while I think that’s smart and exciting there’s a lot more reasons to get involved in this currency in the next generation of revenue other than trying to buy a bunch of Bitcoin right now so you can get rich and then when it goes away you know, I think that’s probably the wrong approach approach and what what are your thoughts around that

Russell: you know, it’s a hard one because the the the past results are what they are and you know, and really bitcoin’s like a great example of you know, supply and demand and economics done its most pure in its purest form right people really want this for whatever reason so even though it’s a no it’s demand that’s maybe a little fantastical you know the demand is still there um but from from an investment standpoint the fact that it is a deflationary currency so it’s going to go up it’s a good long term strategy right I don’t have any doubt that it’s going to go down again and then come up again at some point because everything does nothing can go up nonstop yeah but uh. You know, I’m not selling my bitcoins right now you know, I I do use them for for buying stuff though. It’s just hard to say you know, you want to give investment advice or anything like that, but I think there are a lot of people who are saying oh, well, if you really want to invest there’s there’s better places to get it than Bitcoin there’s better cryptocurrencies than that, if you’re interested in that, but it all comes down to like individually Why would you make any investment like if you’re just like gambling you know, which a lot of it a lot of like stock trading is just gambling right, then then sure. You want to gamble on Bitcoin, go for it. You know, I think that’s a good gamble. But if you’re you know, I think you’re always better off knowing about the what you’re investing in. So if you’re going to invest in Bitcoin, you owe it to yourself to look at a few of the the big you know, the best videos out there like from Andrea Santenopolis, or something that do introduction, introductions to Bitcoin and understand what you’re getting into. So you’re not taken by surprise, you should understand like some of them and you have to understand the math I mean that’s just conceptually what it is that’s going on with Bitcoin and use it, it’s more important for you if you’re an investor, if you’re going to use it that you understand it right.

Eric: I  think additionally, it’s a way to diversify your assets, you can find security in a multitude of ways. And I think this is just a another avenue that allows for consumers to be able to diversify their assets.

Russell: Yeah, well, I think you’re right. And that’s, it’s sad. I think that one of the things is driving is is a is a continued sort of um devaluation of the dollar,

Devon: right

Russell: right, the dollar people people are not holding it as high regard and because of that Bitcoin is looking like a great a great hedge against losses that you might get from keeping your money in dollars, you know that that’s part at least at the psychology that’s, that’s causing this

Devon: so as we’re um ending this from our perspective, but mostly because we’ve got a lot of business owners that do listen to us and and direct advice to soak up as well selfishly I’d love to know what are your words of wisdom for us as a company in terms of this new currency what what should we be doing right now?

Russell: so I think you should definitely be accepting it. You know, there’s no there’s no downside it’s the cost is low if you’re if you’re if you’re in a business that you’re a single you know you’ve got like you don’t have a register if you run your business out of a wallet right one bank account and there’s nothing that nobody else you don’t need any software but but a wallet to run it from you don’t need Wampum you don’t need any anything else you can do it from an open source wallet that you can get if you’ve got a business that has to send invoices or wants to interface with a point of sale or something like that um you can use software you know our software get in really almost no cost much less than one piece of hardware you have to buy for any anybody else and you can get into this and once you’re in you’ll see that it is absolutely the simplest most secure and easiest way to transfer funds from one person to another there’s never been anything this easy and and you know once you realize that then you realize the what how how how commerce is going to evolve in the future this is going to be the evolution it may be you know maybe bitcoins cousin you know something like that. But maybe a theorem and maybe who knows but but getting into it now is smart and it’s low risk and you know if you’re if you’re a business and you’re afraid that volatility there are ways you can make it so there’s almost no volatility right so there’s lots of different approaches. If you don’t have a bank you can go fund a debit card that’s funded by cryptocurrency so you can do lots of different things so that you can start accepting this and benefiting from it now

Eric: wonderful. Well Russell you’ve absolutely been a wealth of knowledge here all puns intended here at SoCap. *laughter* for our viewers you are able to click the link below to be able to contact Russell at Wampum but for our listeners would you share how can they get in touch with you? How can they get more information or even get involved with Wampum?

Russell: Uh cryptowampum.com C R Y P T O W A M P U M dot com or you can look just my my Twitter handle is Rcstag or you can look up crypto wampum or wampum online and you’ll find us. LinkedIn, Facebook, all the various places but just go through there and you’ll be able to contact us directly.

Eric: Wonderful well thank you for your time and

Russell: I guess I should say my phone number too should I like

*laughter*

Devon: probably not

Russell: 750 number just called you right now yeah I have enough robo calls anyway.

Eric: You can give the digital credit card with your social security number on it right?

Russell: Well, we can give them yeah, we give them a wallet.

Devon: there you go.

Eric: much better. Well, again, thank you for coming in and contributing to SoCap Talks, It’s been an honor to have you here as a spotlight. We’ve got a very exciting trend here. And we’re excited to see how it evolves for you and ourselves hop in at SoCap. So thank you again for joining us and we look forward to seeing where this takes all of us on this journey.

Russell: This has been a lot of fun thanks a lot for talking to you guys.

Devon: Thank you.

SoCap talks with Devon Kerns, Eric Sutfin, and Dr. Liz Selzer

Study after study shows that companies that have made a commitment to workplace diversity consistently outperform those that have not. But, even with compelling statistics like that, many companies merely pay lip service to diversity, while others that have put forth well-intentioned efforts simply do it wrong. Devon Kerns and Eric Sutfin of SoCap talk with Dr. Liz Selzer about what diversity means in today’s workplace.

Diversity is not just about skin color and gender, says Dr. Liz. It’s really about diversity of ideas, backgrounds, culture, as well as age, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. Too many companies make the mistake of initiating diversity programs by simply adding a few different colors or more women into the mix, or maybe have a half-day training on tolerance and respect.

But diversity initiatives must go much deeper in order to be effective. The gang agrees that if employers want to walk the walk, commitment to diversity must start at the top and be fundamentally tied to the value system of the organization. Dr. Liz argues that it is critical for companies to have a solid understanding of their organizational values and then hire a diverse team that fits into that core value system.

The team goes on to discuss how companies can initiate effective diversity programs, fix existing ones, and create a workplace in which all of the differing backgrounds, experiences, cultures, and viewpoints work together to create a hyper-successful organization.

 

> View Full Transcripts Here <

 

 

Welcome back to SoCap Talks, helping innovators build tomorrow, today. Now here’s your hosts, Devon Kerns and Eric Sutfin.

 

Devon: Hello and welcome back to SoCap Talks, we are talking about company culture, employment branding and all that fun stuff. I am sitting here with Eric and Dr. Liz as you guys have heard previous to, these are experts that we bring on to talk about how we can enhance your company culture, your branding, and all kinds of amazing business conversations. I appreciate you guys for coming down, what is our topic today? Dr. Liz?

 

Liz: Well I thought it would be interesting to talk about diversity from the standpoint of actually what does a diverse culture look like? It’s not just how many people of color and how many women you have in leadership, it’s got to be different than that, because truly diverse cultures outperform those who are not by 35%, I mean to the bottom line, and so people want diverse cultures but they don’t know how to go about getting them and I think there’s a big element of employment branding that would come to bare on all of that.

 

Devon: aaah diversity, an old old wooden ship

 

*laughter*

 

Eric: mmm the Santa Maria. *laughter* diversity

 

Devon: uh for those that did not get that reference, that’s from Anchorman.

 

Eric: I thought you were the Anchorman. No you’re the podcast man *laughter*

 

Devon: um, so yeah uh diversity is a big one and you kind of helped us take a look at this topic in general, and help us understand how diversity itself is not just about skin tone in fact, it should be um around ways of thinking in order to continue to stimulate innovation and create a culture of diverse thinking. But there’s an important aspect in order for that to work and that was the clarity of value systems.

 

Dr. Liz: mm hmm

 

Devon: so when you’re clear on your value systems you’re clear on your culture, and then you start seeking out that diversity from all levels, both ethnicity and diversity in thinking who all align with your value systems you create an environment that can thrive on a consistent basis, and a lot of probably I’m assuming a lot of intellectual property that comes out of that that enhances your business in ways that you couldn’t even imagine.

 

Dr. Liz: Well yeah cuz if you have diverse perspectives you’re gonna be making better decisions; you’re gonna have more robust solutions. I mean it’s gonna be something that really makes your business take off and again I think, when asked most people get that diverse perspectives are good but okay how do you do that and how do you still have a consistent culture? Because I’ve had a lot of people go okay well we’re just gonna hire to fit our culture. And then you get a bunch of homogeneous people that are all the same and groupthink and it doesn’t work

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Liz: I think, and you’ve just said this, you know, companies that are really successful drill down on what their values are, and they really, they know it, they know it very well. And then they will hire diverse people. And like you said, it’s not just skin color. I think I hate that that’s what people think that diversity is. Diversity, there’s so many aspects to it, there’s personality, there’s generational diversity, which I know, you know, we have to be people are more comfortable with people, their generation, but then you get comfortable and being comfortable is not what makes companies really take off and do well.

 

Eric: those darn baby boomers these days *laughter*

 

Devon: Um, yeah, that is interesting. I look at it. And I think um what is that? Is it it? Is it a top down approach in order to start um really impacting this within the culture of a company? Or where does that start?

 

Dr. Liz: I think it has to be a top down approach. It’s interesting, I was talking to a gentleman from Divida yesterday, and they have they were voted, they got some award for having the most not only diverse culture, but most diverse board. I mean, they, they believe in diversity. But and I asked him exactly that, you know, how did you do that, so that it literally it’s in every fiber of who they are, it’s, it’s absolutely part of everything that they do, from how they hire to how they include people to how they make decisions, and how they, you know, spur innovation. And he said that they It was a top down thing, and he said, they had to see their senior leaders living it out, absolutely living it out, you know, that their board is diverse. If you’re if you’ve got a bunch of white men, and no offense, but you know, a bunch of white men, and that’s your board,

 

Devon: gasp, how dare you?

 

Dr. Liz: Then what is the rest of your company going to look like, you know?

 

Devon: yeah, I think that’s right

 

Dr. Liz: it’s just that piece of it so, I think it definitely has to be

 

Devon: Well they even have, they even have the um sexual orientation in terms of diversity, because don’t they have a transgender on their board? I think?

 

Dr. Liz: yeah, I think I don’t know that for a fact. But it would not surprise me.

 

Devon: yeah

 

Eric:and that part is very important is to walk the walk instead of just talk the talk.

 

Dr. Liz: Absolutely.

 

Eric: We recently just went to the Colorado women’s Chamber of Commerce, 30th anniversary holiday party, and I was astounded, Colorado actually is down across the nation. As far as numbers of females that sit on boards, I think they said, the national average is about 17 and Colorado is below that they’re actually aiming for initiatives for 2018 to be able to just get on that plane, let alone surpass that not as astounding, that less than one out of five, that’s not an equal playing field. You’re not walking the walk.

 

Dr. Liz: no it isn’t, well and if you look at the statistics, okay. So there is obviously statistics show that diversity really improves bottom line, and all of that, but they talk a lot about that gender mix. And it’s not that women are better, you know, some people go, you keep, you know, advocating for women and leadership. They’re not, it’s not that they’re better. I’m not saying that at all. It’s just you need both. And it’s not just gender diversity. Again, we need to go back to I think you need diversity in all aspects

 

Devon: perspective

 

Dr. Liz: absolutely. Because that’s

 

Devon: different upbringing, different ways of life, different thinking, yeah

 

Dr. Liz: oh my goodness and then it’s respect for that. So, you know, I’ve worked with organizations, fact, one of the organizations I worked for a while back, they kept saying, we need to be more diverse, we need to be more diverse. And so what they would do is literally, they would hire someone of color, that was their solution. And of course, but never included them, never honored them, never really respected them. And those people would lead shockingly enough,

 

Devon: intentionally they didn’t or was it an unintentional

 

Dr. Liz: I think they didn’t know I don’t, I think they, they thought the way to get diversity was to hire it, they didn’t realize what you need to do is actually have a plan for including those 31 of

 

Devon: that needs to be one of the value systems like it is in a company Divida.

Dr. Liz: Exactly. And, and everything they do is about including everyone, and making sure I mean, they are constantly having cross company, you know, meetings and Task Force and everything, they listen to everybody. And they like to empower everybody. And I think, you know, there, if you look at all the words that they’ve got, they also the actively work with military and they have a lot of mil-, they’ve gotten a lot of awards for that. But so it’s just, you know, it’s that living out the values that you talk about, which I know is so important with employment branding.

 

Eric: Let me let me challenge you on this. I think this is a important idea and philosophy for companies to adopt. And in theory, it all sounds great. But let’s talk about the nuts and bolts of actually getting into implementing this. And how does that look? How do companies really understand and instill this belief that everyone has an equal voice, right? Because I think most companies while it sounds great one, perhaps it’s way harder to implement, and execute, because they’re weary of it and two by giving everyone a fair, equal voice relatively right? That is a change and change is very scary for companies. But can you share perhaps companies that you’ve worked with, through this process or have seen that have had more diversity within their culture and what that actually does? What are some of the tangibles and

 

Devon: like, what’s the starting point? We’re not diverse. How, where do we start?

 

Dr. Liz: Well I think again, it has to start with senior leadership. Because what you find, and I think you’re talking about something that’s really an important aspect to this senior leadership got there through certain steps, they’ve, it’s literally it’s a, it’s a hierarchical process, you all of a sudden go into that kind of an organization and say, Boy, we want to flatten this out, because I believe that is what you have to do. You have to have less of a hierarchy and more of a respect for everyone. Obviously, you still have to people who make decisions, but they don’t have to be above you know, it’s that flattening out of an organization. But it’s tough for people who have fought very hard to get into leadership positions. They’re like, wait a minute, that’s how I got here. You’re kind of disrespecting me. And do I matter anymore?

 

Devon: is that an ego thing?

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah, I think it’s ego, security fear. I mean, it’s all of those things. And they think, well, maybe I won’t have a job. Because if this flattens out, am I really, I mean, I have gotten here through a certain set of steps. And, and if we all of a sudden take out those steps, what’s to keep me here above Anyone else?

 

Devon: So do you eliminate that fear of, is there another term than flattening out? Because I feel like

 

Eric: diluting or, or

 

Dr. Liz: no, it’s I mean, it’s just so that there’s not so many

 

Devon: evening out

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah, it’s more Yeah, I like evening out.

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Dr. Liz: it’s that it’s, it really all comes down to respect in my opinion, that if we respect everyone, and we respect what they have to say, and we don’t necessarily have to use what they say, but we do need to respect and listen to what they say

 

Devon: respect and listen, and yeah

 

Dr. Liz: And and I think that’s a that’s a key part of it. And it’s not respect earned by positional power, it’s respect earned, because you are a unique person that has something to offer

 

Devon: and performance

 

Dr. Liz: and performance

 

Devon: I would say performance should be the number one indicator, because there’s a lot of people that are in quote, unquote, positions in power. And I haven’t been all that impressed with them.

 

Dr. Liz: I know.

 

Devon: So having a title

 

Dr. Liz: I’ve worked for a number of those, trust me.

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Dr. Liz: it’s not nice

 

Devon: having a having a title does not make you a leader. And if I were to replace someone who isn’t performing at the level that I would want for my company, my living breathing entity, um I would much rather have somebody that is diverse, and a performer to bring in those ways of thoughts, the new ways of thoughts, that difference of, of approach in life and perspective in business.

 

Dr. Liz: Well, being valued on performance is another element of these diverse cultures. And they’re, they’re evened out, and, you know, you have you really, if you don’t perform, you’re out. And instead of holding onto positions, and again, we, we just gloss over it a second ago, but it’s true. I mean, I have worked for people with that, that positional power is so important to them. And they don’t do they do not perform, but they rely on that, you know, I have this title, and so I, you know, will have this job, and I get to decide what happens to all the people who are under me, whereas if you go into it with this real team approach, and again, back to the Divida conversation, they they their title, the guy I talked to, he’s technically like an SVP, but he his title is, amigo.

 

Devon: nice

 

Dr. Liz: I mean, they’re just a, that they, they, and so they, I think this is part of it, you develop a language, that’s another thing that really supports it. But that flattening out and that respect and, and truly including people said, you know, if you put together you want to develop a new product, pull people from every part of your organization and include them,

 

Eric: I think that’s a really important part is we’re now starting to talk about process, right? And how do you truly instill this within the workplace. And diversity isn’t just race, ethnicity, age, uh geo location, or even just their psychographics. So that even goes now into talking about how do you allow for diversity in process so that it’s not just a silo approach or a top down approach of manager to um

 

Devon: employee

 

Eric: employee or superior and it’s just a vertical, you need to be able to allow for diversity in process where in a collaborative method, people are able to problem solve in a diverse way as well, they need to be able to approach different situations and issues that arise in equally diverse mechanisms, they can’t just say, Hey, this is the process 1-2-3-4. And now we have a solution is not a manufacturing line, we need to look at how do you solve each of these problems with the right people and the right process. And that is a diverse processes well, uh so it just transcends people, it goes into ideas, and problem solving.

 

Devon: So making the time to have problem solving sessions, allowing the diverse thinking diverse backgrounds to come up with new solutions,

 

Eric: yeah having the flexibility the malleability to be able to approach whatever it is within your organization, um

 

Devon: and you got to make time for that.

 

Eric: Yeah

 

Devon: like you had, that has to be a part of the

 

Eric: part of all this goes back to intention, right? If you want, if your intention is to uh be progressive, to be innovative, to, uh you know, lead the landscape and be a thought leader, you need to understand that does come from having a variety of ideas, a diversity of ideas, not from putting all the exact same, you know, psychographics all the reds and all the greens in one room and thinking that you’re going to get something completely different

 

Dr. Liz: right. You know, it’s funny, we, when I was down in Mexico City, and I was working with Abba goddess down there, and which is a group of women lawyers that are trying to increase diversity in the, you know, in the partnership area of law firms and have more lead councils as females, and the numbers in Mexico are really low. And this company or this organization is growing just incredibly fast. But one of the things that they did was they brought in IDEO the, you know, the group from California that does all their, the talk about diversity and innovation people, I mean, that’s what they do for people, they help them move forward. And, you know, think of what the new things that they need to come up with, you know, whether it’s a, you know, wireless mouse, I know, that was one of the things or even the mouse in the first place, they have that they help that whole thought process go, but I, they did an exercise with us that brought everybody in, and we in I don’t know, it was probably 15 minute exercise, you know, it was a room full of, you know, a couple hundred people. But we literally, with sticky notes completely filled the whole front thing of all kinds of different ideas, when people are allowed to just think and be and bring who they are, and

 

Devon: and feel like they’re gonna be heard

 

Dr. Liz: Exactly, and feel that they’re going to be heard. And I think that gets back to that whole idea of inclusion and respect is so key to what a truly diverse culture is all about.

 

Devon: What is the fear? What do you think the fear is because a lot of people, I think, um and maybe this is a totally an ignorant viewpoint as a privileged white male in Littleton, Colorado, and now in Denver, um in an area and a topic that maybe I would have an interest in exploring more, but why don’t companies get this particularly not just in the thinking, but in the what’s the fear of having those great cultures and great ethnicities with these brilliant minds that are out there? Why, why am I afraid of that? Why do I not do that? Is it time? Is it change is it? Or is it actual straight up racism

 

Dr. Liz: I think that it could be racism. Absolutely. I mean, that happens, I mean, let’s be realistic about that. But I think there’s also what happens is, there’s a lot of unconscious bias that people don’t even know that they have, and you’re much more comfortable with people who are like you, I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s a that’s a ingrained thing, that that’s part of how we have developed as human beings. And, and so it makes sense, you’re safer when you’re with people who are like you. So you do have to go through and understand where those unconscious bias things happen. I mean, I’ve talked a lot with people that are trying to hire, and they went to hire more diverse people. And then their studies still have these practices yeah like, they will hide it, for instance, they will literally put the um resumes of the people most like them first. And it’s just one of those things that people naturally do. Because, OK, these people are like, you know, it’s, I like this person, I like this person, because they’re like you, versus, you know, having the diverse resumes  up in front or, you know, not having names on them, or you know, whatever it is to try to get past that unconscious bias. So I think there’s a piece of of this that is really unconscious, and we we have to pop that out and recognize it and call it out as a company. I think the safety thing is, you know, I people get worried about their jobs, you know, are they going to matter? What if another person’s opinion that’s completely different from mine is accepted? Does that mean I’m not accepted? And again, when we talk about it, it seems silly, but these are all things that go on. And I think a lot of it, we don’t even know those things are going on

 

Devon: it’s a lot of monkey mind stuff.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah

 

Devon: And that fear. So everything you just talked about is total fear. It is an absolute and it’s unintentional, right? You could be a type a badass, it’s running this amazing company, and you kick ass and everything. And yet, you look around and you realize, holy crap I’ve actually surrounded myself with a lot of comfort.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah, a lot of people like, me

 

Devon: while kicking ass, right? And um I could, I can totally see that. So what what is the solution to that? Is, it is education? Is it immersion? I feel like the more I immerse myself in other cultures, Eric, you’re a good example of this, you went down and did the the was it school?

 

Eric: it was a study abroad,

 

Devon: study abroad

 

Eric: Chile

 

Devon: And now you’re absolutely obsessed with that culture. But I wonder, you know, were you drawn to that beforehand? And then you went down there was it kind of like, yeah, I want to go study abroad, I kinda like this culture, and then all sudden, you come back. And probably 60% of your conversations are in Spanish for no other reason that you just like remembering the language and love the experience. And you had so many great memories down there by immersing yourself. So could that be a part of the solution is just people getting out a little bit more, and getting a little more immersed in a culture and in diverse segments, so that we become less fearful of the thing we don’t understand.

 

Eric: Yes, and I think part of it is inherently you have to have that desire and appreciation and respect that, you know, I can learn something from whether it’s the Hispanic culture, whether it’s from an African culture or Russian Middle Eastern culture, that there is an equality in that you can learn something from whomever. And if you don’t have that, I don’t think you’re gonna walk in any culture and walk away with a profound appreciation, respect for what they can teach you. So your personal value system has to encompass respect for diversity in thinking ethnicity and ways of life.

 

Eric: I think, yes the however, is you can go there and learn a lot, right? It doesn’t need to be a absolute 100% uh attention and awareness to going in there. I think through the process of actually immersion, or very deep conversations with people um that you recognize, wow, this um Ethiopian has various similar situations and circumstances as I do, and a lot to bring to the conversation around whatever religion politics, business, finance, you name it, uh I think you can have those epiphanies and transformations in your perspective. But you need to allow for a safe environment and conversation in space to really learn and appreciate those values of what someone is bringing to the table. So uh I think you can create safe environments, and you can in and through personal development and leadership, entertain these conversations, um would that completely solve it, I think it would take steps and strides towards that. And you could be very conscious about recreating those environments. Um, but I don’t think it is the end all solution, I think it’s perhaps one of the precursors to really instilling this within a culture or organization, but a hundred percent of the company isn’t going to completely do that, right? We are human into the day, not every single person is going to, but you need to have the masses, you need to have the majority that are prone and keen to actually entertaining this idea.

 

Dr. Liz: And I think if you have to have those, those things modeled for you, I think your point about safety is really important. And I think it has to be an ongoing, intentional process where you say, Okay, here is a safe place for diverse ideas to come together so that we don’t have to be, we by nature judge, you know, I mean, that we just do, we we’re always judging how things should go, what this person is better, that person’s good, this person’s bad. I mean, it’s kind of how we are. And I always encourage people, if you can really get to a place where it’s a learning stance, the minute you start being aware, and again, a lot of this is just setting out an awareness to people to know when these processes kick in. But you know, if you can have them aware of their judging, and if, if they can then sit back and go, Hmm, instead of saying, Why does she do that? You need to go back and go, hmm, Why did she do that? You know, it’s a completely different it’s a safer place

 

Devon: it’s a 30 thousand foot view without emotional attachment.

 

Dr. Liz: Yes. If you’re just curious. That’s, that’s safe.

 

Eric: Right

 

Dr. Liz: rather than judgmental.

 

Eric: Oh, actual practical way to implement that comes from one of our dear friends and executive coaches, JP Flom. JP Flom talks, about how this is a communication practice within organizations. And as a leader, regardless of whatever your title is, you can either ask one of two questions, one, you know, everybody okay with this, and either they raise their hand out of fear or you can shift it and say what concerns do people have? And on the other side, you ask people aren’t willing in okay to provide those who say, you know, John, What’s your idea? What are your concerns about this, where can be improved how we make this better? Sally, your turn, and you go around the horseshoe. And in time, by creating that environment where people are able and free to speak up, you create an environment where you can hear that so you it is in part also just communication tactic for business owners to be aware that perhaps you’re not creating that safe environment because you’re asking the wrong question, you’re asking a very closed ended question where people are fearful that if I raise up or speak up and raise my hand, that I’ll be the only one in the room. And it’s going to get shot down. And I’m not going to get that promotion and this that and the other versus my ideas could perhaps dramatically increase the value of whatever is on the table and provide a solution to upper management

 

Devon: is this easier to do if I’m playing at an A level and I surround myself with A level players because for, I’m just thinking about my own experience. And as we have had just people in general around me, who aren’t playing it at A level and then they offer their opinion and they offer their thoughts and it’s really stupid, I have a hard time respecting them

 

*laughter*

 

Devon: from that perspective. So like, can is is it important to be selective, and within the selection of diverse thinking, making sure that I’ve paid attention to the performance level of these people paid attention what they’ve actually done, and then put them in the right environments where they can thrive because again, I don’t care who you are, if you’re saying dumb shit, you’re saying dumb shit. And like, *laughter* What do I do? Like I can, and I feel like a lot of companies are doing it goes back to your point, like, okay, we need to be more diverse. Because whatever reason, whether it’s fear, because they’re gonna get in trouble, or, or because they think it’s gonna bend softly,

 

Dr. Liz: hopefully it’s not because of compliance hopefully it’s cuz they want to improve their business product but,

 

Devon: I mean I would hope so. But I can’t imagine I’m like, there’s got to be all kinds of situations, right? You would hope, but there’s whatever you get it. Um, but I also kind of need a reset on who is playing in my company, if I’m gonna start this process of going down the path of bringing new people to the table and bringing that diverse thinking, I also don’t just need diversity, I need people who are playing at the at the top of their game, and focus on leaders who are going to enhance my company, and not just bring in diversity for the sake of bringing in diversity

 

Dr. Lis: okay, but top of their game. See, that’s an interesting thing. And just that, right, there is a judgment that you make, and I think there are people who may have really great things to say about certain items, and then maybe they have not so smart things to say about other things. So there, it’s that, um you know, I think a company that can consistently, you know, stands behind results, you know, demands results, make sure those results are there, that company culture, I think, too, if if if people go together, strongly or go forward, strongly set really well, in values that they are, I mean, really embedded in, I think it tends to make people I mean, your conversations will be at the level that you want them to be at. I you know, I think sometimes, and I think that’s why to have true diversity, you have to have people that are all fighting for the same values that all really care about those same values, and it may be different. I mean, they are different company to company, obviously, I mean, different companies value different things. And I think that you, you know, you find people who fit your values, and then you I don’t know, there’s sort of a believing the best about somebody when you know that they have the same values as you do. And then, you know, maybe they don’t articulate something as quite as well as you might, but then, you know, you, you know, that they’re still on the same playing field, and also, again, in their head, they have to be providing results. I mean, I’ve had, you know, when I’ve had people and I don’t respect their work product at all, then I don’t respect their opinion. I mean, I just don’t, and I think that’s kind of what you’re saying, but, you know, how do you move that forward? Because, you know, a lot of companies have the staff that they have, I mean, do you just fire a bunch of people? Because, I mean, what do you do this is, you know, as you guys come in, and you work with employment, branding, you know, you’re working with companies that are already in existence, and already have a culture that they probably want to improve and make better. So, you know, what do you do with this whole topic?

 

Devon: I mean, I think the answer is, first and foremost, create an environment with these value systems that focus on growth and recognize the entity as being its own living, breathing, standalone being. And just like another human, it’s got, it it needs to be fed the right nutrients, it needs to have the right moving parts and, and and you need to take care of this entity. And so in some cases, if I am feeling unhealthy, and I am drinking a bunch of alcohol, those things are directly correlated. So I should probably cut out the alcohol, right?

 

Eric: No

 

*laughter*

 

Devon: don’t do it

 

*laughter*

 

Devon: And if there is cancerous, toxic human beings within my entity, yes, I need to remove those. But but but cancerous and toxic are not always showing up as the pain in the ass person, or the the lazy person, or the most obvious cancer, um it can be somebody that is just slowly creating a problem, they’re not performing or they’re not put in the right position. So I agree with you. It’s not always about the person and their and their performance in the position they’re at. They may have a skill set in that thing. But if they have no passion for the thing, they’re going to be performing at a 40%, right, instead of 100%. I you know, I hate to use the analogy of football, because I don’t understand it too much other than the fact that I love the Broncos and I like watching the ball go up and down and I get the point system. But like, whatever, you know, and I’m sitting there and I’m thinking to myself, if if I see this six foot four um very talented, very fast human being, and he’s played wide receiver his entire life, but he actually has intuitively and passionately a stronger desire to be the defensive corner right his hands aren’t quite as good as the best receivers in the in you know out there, but they’re good enough. But he just has this natural inherent talent and loves like this, this skill set that nobody’s ever given him a chance to thrive in in that corner position, put him in the damn corner position, or send him away and get them on a team where he can play corner and recognizing talent and not being afraid either A to move him around, or B allow them to exit because you see, and you can empower something that’s great in them, and then hire people who are great at that position and passionate about the thing, people are passionate, all kinds of things. We’ve got this amazing um woman a part of our team, and she, like, literally gets off on databases. I don’t understand it. I like, don’t ever care to understand her passion for spreadsheets, but she frickin loves it. You don’t want me doing that ever.

 

Dr. Liz: I’m grateful for those people.

 

Devon: Yeah, and even if I had the skill set, I could, I could go to school and learn how to do the spreadsheet thing. But I’m gonna do the spreadsheet at 110% less effort than she would. And in 200% less or more time than she would she can just whip it out in seconds. Because she’s so passionate about it. So is a part of value system and a part of diversity, recognizing passion and putting people in the right place. Because you can develop skill set when you have passion.

 

Dr. Liz: Absolutely. And I would agree with that. And, you know, I know the really strong companies with strong corporate culture they hire on values. And yes, the skills are nice, but they hire on values because, you know, the world is changing so fast. And your skills today may not be you know, they may be obsolete tomorrow, and then you learn something else. And so they can, you know, you can, I don’t think you can, you can’t really train on values. I mean, you can maybe train on how to act them out or whatever, but values  you can help them be clarified. But if you truly don’t value community work, you can’t, you know, and you go to a company who values that, that, that you’re a part of the community and you you’re helping the community, you interact with community. And if that’s not something that really you value, you’re gonna be miserable there, you’re going to underperform. It’s not gonna work.

 

Eric: I think there is something to that landscape, the workforce landscape is evolving so much more today, we have diversity in businesses, unlike we’ve ever seen. If you think back even just 50 years ago, most businesses were probably 90% the same, right, it was the cubicle life and it was the call center and it was all these things that are very, very similar across businesses across industry lines. Today, you’ve got co working shared spaces you have solopreneurs, you have people that are able to work from home, you’ve got a really diverse work environment now, that is also changing too. I think there’s a massive part of recognizing the work environment and and the nature by which people are able to uh provide value is changing. You can do that in short, little stints um online and online tutoring. Or you can do it in remote year and travel across the world uh still doing your job. But being developed as a leader. I mean, there’s a growing diversity and just how you can show up and provide value and organizations that are able to look at which of those align with their own are the ones are going to be successful.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah, being nimble, clearly is something that’s so important to companies now. And I think, to continue to have diverse cultures, you have to be nimble. But you also have to I mean, there’s certain things that you have to do consistently. And I think we talked about it first is, has to be modeled in and, you know, start at the top, I think you need to have language all around it. I think you need to be really intentional about putting structures in place so that people can have that diversity of thought, if you just go with people creating meetings, they’re going to create meetings with people that they know. And that’s, it’s not going to be like that. But if you say, Okay, well, you know, we have these different task force. And then this is something that we, we do, and we value that these all of these voices are heard and listen to, um I think you you do leadership development for everyone, you know, instead of just your executives, it drives me nuts that, you know, it’s like, oh, we’ll just start executives are getting developed, well, they need to be, but so does everybody else because that tells you that they are truly valued and that they are respected. If if somebody is trying to help them develop in their personal and professional life, I mean, I think there’s a lot of things I think mentoring is another really great way for diversity. There’s been a, there was a really good study done not too long ago, that they found all these diversity programs in work, none of them were successful. In fact, they resulted in fewer people of color, and fewer women in upper leadership, you know, upper leadership, a lot of it was because those diversity programs just explained how people are diverse, but it wasn’t about inclusion. So what really ended up happening is this whole idea of tolerance, let’s tolerate people, which as I think I’ve mentioned before, it, tolerance puts up a barrier between you and another person, I am tolerating your weirdness, okay,

 

Devon: which automatically makes a hierarchy of like, I am better

 

Dr. liz: Exactly. And that I hate those bumper stickers that say tolerance, because I don’t think that’s what it’s about at all. So, but what they did find was that organizations that actively included a mentoring initiative where they were pairing people that were diverse, whether it was men with women, whether it was, you know, people of color with people, you know, with other people that, you know, are white men, I mean, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s one of those things that they found, those were the programs that actually had an effect, and it was a great study was in HBR, I think so, um, and sponsorship is another thing that really helps with that, you know, really elevating diverse people. But in and again, I think we have to remember, this isn’t an overnight process, it takes some time, and it takes real determination that you’re going to do it, you know, it can’t be just the flavor of the month, we’re going to, you know, be more diverse this week, you know, it’s not, it’s got to be ingrained in your entire culture and everything you do, the way you talk about your positions, you know, if you have these really hierarchical positions, it’s, it’s tough to be super diverse, because in it, it implies a hierarchy of value of people, and all the sudden you’ve just lost your your evening out of that

 

Devon: um before we wrap it up, I think what’s really interesting across the board is just this idea that diversity is not one dimensional, on any level. And all of it stems from a culture where you have clearly defined value systems of which one of those values is diversity. And potentially one of those other values is inclusion, listening, and communication, or are those separate pillars?

 

Dr. Liz: I don’t know that diverse? Well, if this I’m trying to figure out is how do you vet *groans* easy for me to say, um you know, valuing diversity means, okay, so you value that there’s a diversity in your thing, you have to value inclusion, I think they have to go hand in hand, I don’t know how else you can make it real if you they don’t go hand in hand. And I also think that learning stance is another really important thing for

um cultures that truly want to be diverse. Because people stand back instead of in a judgmental stance, or in a learning stance. And all of a sudden, you know, they’re learning from everyone. I mean, I say that all the time, you can learn something from everybody, anybody, I don’t care who they are. Maybe it’s how not to behave. But you can still learn something from anyone. And if you stand back, instead of judging and getting irritated, which takes up a lot of energy, if you can stand back and be calm and just learn it’s it’s, again, has to be modeled in p, it has to be supported and encouraged, um because we don’t naturally do that again. And which makes sense. I mean, you know, survival of the fittest, you have to judge what is safe, what is not like you who is not so it’s going against kind of our innate tendencies, but I think we can do it.

 

Devon:Yeah, I think it’s possible for sure. Any last thoughts, Eric?

 

Eric: I think, not only is it possible, but my encouragement is diagnose in an hour and a meeting over lunch, if this is something for your organization that could be truly transformational, or just what would it look like? What are potentially the implications,

 

Dr. liz: mm that’s good

 

Eric: and play the I wonder game, I wonder what would happen if we did this, I wonder what would happen if we did that, whether it be an ideas or values, I would imagine, you’d be very surprised, pleasantly surprised at what that might do for your organization, if you just were to implement a fraction of what we’ve talked about, or just looked at it through this lens, uh because it does take a lot of work, it does take a lot of energy to be able to do this simply uh to undertake this task. But I think you could see what transformation it would allow for in your workplace, in your attitude, in your happiness in what would evolve for your organization

 

Devon: and your growth, your your personal growth and the growth within the company. Um, any last thoughts, Dr. Liz?

 

Dr. Liz: Uh no, I just think it’s, it’s a great conversation. I think every organization should be looking at that. I love what you just said, Eric, that’s a great place to start. What if, what if we really took the time and energy to do that? What would the result be? Is that worth the energy? You know, and I think it is, but I think it’s healthy to kind of go in not because I hate diversity, for compliance. And what you’re saying is not that and I love that um when, when all we’re worried about is diversity for compliance, then that’s a that’s a negative backward track. And then I think it’s just not, that’s not what we want to go for. So

 

Devon: I’d say across the board, what’s really great is a lot of our listeners will most likely be newer companies. And how fortunate are they that they don’t have to try and reinvent the wheel, they can look at this and start out of the gate with these types of value systems and immersion and diversity. And think ahead, and I would encourage everyone to make that game plan to have that foresight that if you plan on being a large company, enlarge does not necessarily have to mean you know, hundreds or thousands of employees, 10 employees that are diverse and thinking and that are um getting shit done. And you’re listening to each other and you’re respecting each other, you could come up with products and services and things that you’ve never even imagined, become a multi multi million dollar company and organization leave a huge impact on this world. Because of it, so um yeah, this isn’t just conversations to those big companies that need to make these changes. It’s very important for the future companies to have this conversation ahead of time and put the strategies and systems and value systems in place.

 

Devon: Well, I appreciate you guys for being here again, and I look forward to having some other guests on board with us in the future and having other conversations. This is Devin Kerns with Social Capital and we will be in touch with you next time around social capital integration.

 

SoCap talks with Devon Kerns, Eric Sutfin, and Dr. Liz Selzer, Nancy Holmes

In today’s market where unemployment is at all-time low, it can not only be extremely challenging to attract quality employees, but also to keep them engaged. It is important now, more than ever, for companies to establish an outward-bound image that makes their organization attractive to prospective employees and engaging for current employees. Hence, the emergence of Employment Branding. What exactly is that?

Employer branding, which was barely on any organization’s radar a decade ago, is now one of the top issues in the C-Suite, as companies struggle to find and keep high-level workers in a tightening labor market. Employer branding is particularly important when it comes to attracting, retaining, and motivating Millennials, who already represent the largest portion of the workforce.

Research from LinkedIn shows that companies with positive employment branding get twice as many quality applicants compared to those without. This is undoubtedly why nearly 50% of organizations recently polled by Deloitte plan to increase spending on employer branding.

The gang talks about culture, communication, values, mission, and creating an environment where employees feel valued and that their actions and outcomes matter.



 

Transcript to Follow:

Welcome back to SoCap Talks, helping innovators build tomorrow, today. Now here’s your hosts: Devon Kerns and Eric Sutfin.

 

Devon: Hello and welcome back to SoCap Talks, this is the Social Capital Integration conversation about how to have great employment branding combined with HR and leadership development within your company.  We are on the topic today of employment branding and we have a special guest with us, Eric who also works with Social Capital. He is a branding and marketing guru, and he’s also been doing quite a bit of research and found an interesting article about, um the- what people are really looking for in the employment space when it comes to working for companies and there’s some interesting changes on the list as to what people are looking for in comparison to what they’re expecting particularly around our conversation with mi- about millennials and what they really want. Um this article is kind of showing that the trend is shifting a little bit so, welcome Eric and uh what’d you find?

 

Eric: Thank you, yeah thank you for having me. This article I found fro, Forbes is really interesting because it highlights the top 15 reasons why people quit their jobs. So we can flip this and really start understanding well what does keep people engaged and interested in their work environment? And why are they leaving? What- and where is the disconnect in between, uh a current place of employment and the ideal situation for what they’re actually seeking and what’s fascinating is over time, salary has become more and more of a issue. Uh, historically people would say that they’d stay if they had great mentors and leadership, if they saw upward mobility, if they had a community that fostered their development and allowed them to excel, uh and then money would come in. Or they’d deal with a long commute and drive, and we can look at that you know commute is actually number 9th on this list. Uh, which means they’d put up with all this other stuff with a long commute, but now salary has risen and we can entertain you know exactly why is that? Why is salary gone from something that’s not nearly as much of a pressing need to being actually first on the list where over 69% of people will leave because their salary is inadequate.

 

Devon: What do you ladies think? Why do you think salary has all of a sudden gone from midway on the list to top of the list?

 

Dr. Liz: I think that uh, one of the things to think about is the millennials are aging and I know everyone likes to put them in a category that are millennials are a certain way, we don’t I know we’ve talked about a lot about not doing that. But, I think as they are getting older, they were very idealistic when they were younger, as we all were when we were younger.

 

Devon: Exactly.

 

Dr. Liz: And then as they’re moving and growing older, they’re realizing that there’s certain things that they want. They maybe do want a home or a place that they’re purchasing, they don’t want to be in an apartment anymore. They want to you know they’re all facing these dog gone student loans, not all of them, but a lot of them are cuz it’s one of the high, most highly educated generations that we’ve ever had

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Dr. Liz: So, you know I think finally life is creeping in there and they’re going wow, you know we’ve gotta take care of these things so we can still live the way we want to live.

 

Devon: Hold on I can’t work 20 hours a week, have a quality lifestyle, and be broke?

 

Dr. Liz: Nope! *laughter*

 

Devon: Oh,

 

Nancy: Funny thing,

 

Devon: weird, I feel like that’s been the case for way beyond these millennials that we’ve been talking about. So do you find, Nancy, that particularly from the HR perspective, um this is truth or we were kind of talking about the fact that you were wondering why or maybe is that true?

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm, well it’s be interesting to see some longevity to some of these studies, to see you know what is that trend, how long has it made that shift because, to Eric’s point it has not really been the number one key reason people stay or go. Um, it’s a lot of other things but I think the economy has you know has shifted so much in terms of the cost of living. Um, percentage wise the differential between what it costs for us to go to school versus what now these kids are being strapped with these huge student loans. I think in part too with the maturity of millennials or anybody for that matter, you start to realize wow I’ve got to start paying bills and um, really being more financially sound and stable and that’s something that I’ve learned about millennials is that they really want that stability, they want to be with a company that has 401k’s, that they feel like they can start to really um make headway and so, that may be part of the reason why pay is important. They need to pay off some of those loans, the cost of housing has just gone up exponentially, especially here in Denver, and so money is now becoming the priority, not so much again though for the stuff, it is that lifestyle of um being very minimalistic with the stuff, the things, but the life experiences that they have so, buying into something a lot smaller that allows them to travel, you know, 4 or 5 weeks out of the year, then um you- all the better. Wanting to have that that financial stability.

 

Devon: Weird how traveling takes money *laughter*

 

Nancy: Crazy.

 

Devon: not just time. Although speaking of time, number 2 on the list is what?

 

Eric: Number 2 on the list is being overworked, so the close 2nd at 63% of why people are leaving is because they’re overworked.

 

Devon: So what’s interesting about that is you now have

 

*background* he needs to het closer to the microphone *Devon laughter*

 

Devon: You’re getting yelled at, Eric. Um, what’s interesting is this boils down to, hold on. This place was an awesome place to work and I love working here but now you’re taking advantage of my time and I have no time to have a quality life and if you want me to work this hard you need to do what?

 

Dr. Liz: Pay me.

 

Devon: Pay me.

 

Dr. Liz: Yep.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: I feel like that’s a conversation that’s been going on

 

Dr. Liz: Forever

 

Devon: For a very long time.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah.

 

Devon: So time and money is not ironic

 

Nancy: No

 

Devon: In my mind.

 

Nancy: It’s not new.

 

Devon: Yeah, it’s not new. *laughter*

 

Eric: The common denominator here is recognition. I mean if we were to boil down, when I looked at these 15 reasons why people quit and leave their jobs from this paycheck survey that Forbes is referencing, we look across, you know, employers didn’t care about their employees, they don’t enjoy their work, they move to another city, they didn’t like their boss, back to 2 things that you mentioned: recognition of reward or lack of benefits from an HR perspective, the common denominator here are one of three things. Either recognition, communication, or social capital. And in recognition we can look at pay, we can look at team recognition, awards, their titles, their value, um and what that looks like and recognition can take many shapes and forms beyond just pay.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Eric: And employers are starting to look at, from an employment branding side of things, when they’re starting to position their company for employers at not just benefits and not just salary but the culture and a culture of recognition beyond just money. But, money still has to be there because of this lifestyle and to Dr. Liz’s point, millennials aren’t now just exiting college, that’s Gen-Z that’s exiting college and entering the workforce. Millennials are well entering their 30’s and they are wanting to either move into homes or have investment properties or wanting to be able to travel more. So they need more money to be able to do so, but recognition can also take many shapes and forms.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm, mm hmm, absolutely.

 

Devon: Yeah and being overworked and underpaid and not recognized, that,

 

Eric: Strike 3.

 

Devon: is kind of that triad that will get me to leave real fast. However, if I feel like I’m getting recognized; I feel like my purpose matters, I might accept a little more work and a little less pay.

 

Dr. Liz: I’d love to see a correlation. So this is Forbes and I again I don’t know their, how they did their um research but you know, if if if you ask people do you wish you had more money? You know a lot of people might say yes and the next one might be you know what do you think about the communication with your manager? And the and so you I don’t know if they were allowed to create multiple things?

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: and I also wonder if, if somebody was really high on hey, you know I love where I work I love the culture where I work, I wonder how high the money thing would be on those? I mean that’s the thing about research, you can kind of get it to say what you want it to say.

 

Devon: mmm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: So, I don’t know.

 

Devon: So moving um, deeper into the employment branding and knowing that these are kind of the things that employees would be looking for, particularly in a good economy with you know in Denver we have a 2.3 unemployment rate or something like that it’s pretty ridiculous here so,

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah

 

Devon: what you’re really looking at is, how do we get those A players to come over to our company?

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: and stay,

 

Devon: and stay yes exactly and perform.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah

 

Devon: umm at the level they were or higher. And so what, what do you guys feel like is the most um beneficial place to start if a company’s really looking at how do we begin the process of attracting these people? Eric what what are your suggestions in terms of the starting point.

 

Eric: This is one of those double edge swords where you can look at either the tangibles or the intangibles and sometimes the intangibles are really hard to be able to get a pulse on and be able to understand what they’re actually doing to your bottom line and how they’re affecting your company. But I, I’d look at both of them, you know it’s almost like putting it all on paper and writing what are the tangible things and what are the intangible things? And start understanding a company’s strengths and weaknesses because every company and every culture is gonna be different but you can layout things like pay, benefits, how many people are taking advantage of their PTO? Uh, how many people are taking advantage of their medical benefits? Uh maternity leave? You can start looking at employment engagement surveys and teamwork and satisfaction. You can look at how many people are showing up to parties and and uh corporate events. You can take a look at all these things that numbers are really easy to tie to, but then you also have to take into consideration all the things that are far harder to be able to establish KPI’s around. Things like morale, things like intellectual property when someone leaves and they have all these processes they know how to do in 5 hours yet someone else that comes in, it takes them 20 hours to be able to fulfill the same objectives, and what is that over the course of a year? How much are you losing in lost opportunity because someone just left with 15 hours worth of know-how that didn’t get passed along to their next employee. We gotta start looking at things like sales numbers and reputation that you have with not just vendors, but with the general public especially if you are a CPG or a uh product based company. What if someone walks out the door and has just negative things to say at their BBQ at their pool at their Thanksgiving. What is the lifetime cost of that negative reputation that someone now isn’t going to your business but your competitors. All these intangibles add up but so you need to but really be conscience and look at what are all of these considerations? Before you can start assessing where can you improve and start spending more time on those attributes and characteristics that you’re weak in.

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Devon: So look at the pros and cons make a pro and con list, and from there start analyzing why.

 

Dr. Liz: mm hmm

 

Devon: and from the why you can sit down and what do you suggest is next?

 

Nancy: Yeah, well I think you hit uh a strong point uh, of having engagement surveys, um the kicker is if you’re going to participate in that, you’re asking your employees to give their honest you know candid feedback, then you have to be prepared to take action with what’s come back. Not to say that it’s going to create this wish list, that they’re going to get everything that, you know they asked for, but at least to acknowledge address it, but if it’s a well constructed survey and I’ve been part of that process for a number of different companies, you can get a wealth of information. But then how is it that you translate those concerns and and what people value into actionable items that they can change and make an impact.

 

Eric: I think before that it’s a keen understanding of what type of culture you want to create.

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Eric: I think it’s really, before you start putting in events and actual items and things, you need to know what is the culture and community that you want to have people showing up to on Monday morning?

 

Nancy: Yes

 

Eric: Cuz culture is something that le- lives and breathes even when you’re not there.

 

Nancy: Exactly

 

Eric: A company culture isn’t just 9-5

 

Nancy: Right

 

Eric: It’s around the clock.

 

Nancy: Yep!

 

Eric: And so you need to look at, what is the environment and culture what do you want your employees and prospects to say when they’re talking about your company from an employment perspective? And what are you looking to create that community into? And that’s gonna really help then guide what actionable things you’re going to be implementing.

 

Nancy: Yeah

 

Eric: Are you implementing more events? Community? Or are you implementing a completely different series of practices.

 

Nancy: Yeah

 

Dr. Liz: You know what, it’s funny because I- I go to a different place I- I tend to go to when I hear about KPI’s and those things I think those are the things that get the executive group to care.

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: but I think honestly you’ve got to boil it down to it has to start from a place of values. Um, values that are non negotiable, values that are articulated well, that everybody knows don’t have a list of 30, have a list of 3, 5 at the most, and values that everybody in your organization is apart of. And then, and this is something that Devon and I have talked about a lot, is then you also have to have that diversity. So you sit there and go we’ve got everybody who agrees on the values, but then you also have to have a lot of diverse thought or you lose innovation. And I think you can do it you just have to understand the difference

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Dr. Liz: Because I think a lot of people go oh well we don’t want this clone-like group. Well no we’re not saying that, but you can, you and I can have the same values and live very different lives in a very different perspectives because of our experiences.

 

Devon: We don’t at all though,

 

*laughter*

 

Dr. Liz: yeah really, okay that’s just

 

*laughter*

 

Nancy: Well and I think if you step,

 

Dr. Liz: Our lives couldn’t be more different you’re right.

 

Devon: but we do have the same values I think.

 

Dr. Liz: We do have the same values.

 

Devon: I think I think it’s a part of what’s so attractive about how we work together and

 

Dr. Liz: I agree.

 

Devon: um

 

Dr. Liz: I love it.

 

Devon: Participate in helping these other companies as we walk the talk and I think that’s the point. Is we aligned and in fact we were magnetic around that

 

Dr. Liz: Yes

 

Devon: and how we even came together because we were so obsessed with the core value system of what we truly want and what we truly believe in and how we live our day to day in openness. Even things that are the intangibles like you’re talking about right. The, the

 

Eric: Communication.

 

Devon: Yeah, well yeah I think communication’s probably number one, um in any partnership, relationship and particularly communication top bottom sideways, any angle that you want but communication’s really hard when we have not established core common values. And,

 

Nancy: Well and I’d even like to take it back even one more step to say that, unless you’ve got senior management and a CEO who has complete buy-in, who has is just as equally passionate about creating that culture

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Nancy: You can’t, you- you’re gonna be dead in the water. You can have a phenomenal work environment, um great culture great values everything can go well, and we’ve all seen new management come in and completely disrupt that. Why? Because they don’y buy into that, they don’t see the value in it, and so over time, I’ve seen it with a couple different companies, one where the CEO’s actually worked side by side for a year, which created a huge amount of tension that rippled through this whole organization that otherwise was, you know the motto was we work hard we play hard. And um so I think it, it’s gotta start there. Uh they can give lip service, but if there isn’t true buy in and true uh a passion about the company that they want to create in terms of it’s culture, um it’s an uphill battle for any HR person, marketing person, senior management, I mean small groups may be able to have their own little pockets, and I’ve seen that happen before too they had a phenomenal manager who knew how to motivate, inspire, and develop her people, and they had an awesome department.

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Nancy: umm

 

Eric: Nancy did you say work hard play hard?

 

Nancy: Yes.

 

Eric: That’s a new one I haven’t heard that before.

 

*laughter*

 

Eric: but even within that and what you’re talking about with subcultures, is what does that look like to your business? Right?

 

Nancy: Right

 

Eric: I mean we all want that lifestyle, we all want to participate in a business community and culture like that, but what does that mean when it comes to the married populous within your organization? What are the LGBT, perhaps the hispanics, perhaps the single professional moms? That can take shape in a variety of ways and it’s gonna look way different for the mom that has daycare than it is for the salesman.

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Eric: and so we need to recognize and look at, that’s what I mean by like what type of culture you really looking at the end of mine we’re saying the exact same thing. But it’s having a very clear understanding of what that culture looks like. And then working back, then you can start implementing processes and procedures

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Eric: whether it’s HR or whether it’s in leadership development and you can work back but it goes back absolutely to values and standards and what that looks like for your company. You can work hard and play hard and maybe your play is philanthropy, maybe your play is going outdoors

 

Nancy: mm hmm mm hmm

 

Eric: Maybe your play is uh you know cooking and being able to have these these workshops where you get everyone together for a potluck once a month

 

Nancy: Absolutely.

 

Eric: that can take a variety of forms but it comes back to your values and standards as

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Eric: an organization

 

Nancy: Absolutely

 

Devon: So, let’s let’s kind of digest values real quick and let’s look at this list of particularly the top 2 things right we’ve got um the the biggest factors that employees are now concerned with, looking for, one being low salary, one being overworked. What is a value that solves both of those problems that a company could have that then engages people to understand that maybe I don’t feel like I’m getting paid enough but I believe in this company. Or maybe I’ve got to get the job done, and I don’t feel like I’m overworked, because we believe what? What does a value system that solves both of those problems? Because we can always make more, we always want to make more we’re human beings right? I think once I’ve been here for 5 years I deserve more than the manager that’s been her or whatever it may be. And at the end of the day even at your if you’re at the top you want to make more. Right? So what, is it about the money or is it about something deeper that could be an established value that allows people to feel like these two things matter a little bit less because of this value.

 

Dr. Liz: Well coming from my perspective with the leadership and valuing each individual, I think there is something about people real, knowing, knowing deeply that what they do when they come to work matters.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz: And it contributes to the overall mission of the organization. And, I mean that’s where money comes in because gee if they’re paying me well, I must be contributing well. Okay, so if they truly know that I mean I do believe you can get away, get away it sounds like you don’t want to pay people more, but I’m just saying I don’t think they need as much money if they truly feel like man when I come into work, first of all I matter, people care that I’m here and and then what I do today, matters.

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: and that it’s yeah if I if I didn’t do my work today, it would make a difference.

 

Nancy: and not necessarily just for the company, but for a greater cause.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah

 

Nancy: I think that’s what really gets people excited and creates greater passion. If they feel like you know Habitat for Humanity they feel like I’m doing something bigger than myself,

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Nancy: is a huge part of that.

 

Dr. Liz: well and I but that’s why i said tie it into the mission, because I’m not talking about the profit margins.

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: I’m saying tie it into the mission of the organization. And that’s part of this whole employment branding piece,

 

Devon: right

 

Dr. Liz: is why are we here?

 

Devon: yeah

 

Dr. Liz: it’s that whole Simon Sineck. Why? The the value of why, why do we come to work everyday? What difference are we making in the world?

 

Eric: you know what we like to call that?

 

Dr. Liz: what?

 

Eric: Social Capital.

 

Dr. Liz: There we go

 

*laughter*

 

Dr. Liz: I teed it up for you baby, it’s right there

 

Eric: Thank you thank you.

 

Eric: That’s the third one. So we, we’ve talked about recognition, we’ve glimpsed over communication, but the third is social capital, and that is how do you have a business that is mission driven, that both of you guys are talking around it and I’ll I’ll call it out. The elephant in the room is what is your mission beyond just the monetary compensation and the bottom line.

 

Dr. Liz: mm hmm

 

Eric: What is this business doing in its industry and what are those values I think you’re talking about Devon about contribution. We’re not just making this dodad or gadget or widget to be able to make money, but ultimately at the end of the day it is impacting society in a significant and meaningful way. And I know that, even if I stay another 10 hours later after work, its because it has an impact and it has significance and whether I do it remotely or whether you know I have to be at the office or sit in rush hour traffic it doesn’t matter because I know that my time and input into this is going to make a much bigger impact and I can see that and the company is going to tell me that so I think perhaps the value around that equally is transparency in what the company’s influence and impact is in the community.

 

Devon: Well let’s be honest there’s a lot of dodads in America that probably don’t bring a lot of significance to our world however, using and utilizing profit and gain from the dodad that America wants like the little spinny thing that you hold in your hand down there *laughter* I don’t know that it did a whole lot for me when I’m spinning it in my hand but man, if they were doing something of value with the money that they’re gaining off of a 30 cent product that they’re selling for $25 and a large part of that $25 profit, or $24

 

Eric: ADHD

 

Devon: *laughter* yeah exactly went to, went to solve the chemical imbalance problem

 

Dr. Liz: ADHD research that’s good

 

Devon: Exactly.

 

Dr. Liz: I like it.

 

Devon: Yeah, and and it really is do I matter? Do we matter? Are we doing something that matters? And I think that’s a great um thing to digest in terms of solving the I need more money or I’m feeling overworked is if things matter within the entity then I am willing to participate beyond what my expectation is because I’m a part of a mission that is greater than myself.

 

Eric: From an employment branding standpoint what’s interesting when you communicate those, not only do you increase your bottom line by being able to sell more of those dodads, but you also increase the ability for employees to want to work for you.

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Eric: and what happens is now the people internally within your organization, have a higher ….. they’re they’re demanded more, right? And so because that job that position is in more demand, their expectations are higher because they know they’re now replaceable. There’s someone that is perhaps more qualified, that will take the same pay rate or less because they know this lines with their values and their contributions. So you’ve got this just talent pool of exceptional individuals that want to work for your organization because you, one recognize them, and two you have the ability to contribute to the economy to society at a much larger scale.

 

Devon: mm hmm now moving in a slightly tweaked direction, so you were talking about a value system that I feel like belongs to a corporation that might have a call department um, a lot of admin assistance and a sales department and so on and so forth but there are some companies that just have um w- a in other words you’ve got a lot of salaried individuals. But then you have businesses like real estate or mortgage or insurance that aren’t necessarily salary based but they’re performance based. And there’s a value system around pay and feeling overworked that can be established in terms of performance. We believe in performing for the sake of the customer and we believe in performing for the sake of taking care and serving the community, that gets me to intrinsically feel like if I perform, I make more but I only make more because I’m performing for the sake of the company and that bigger vision. I think it ties back to mattering, but in terms of sales which is what I’m used to right, starting businesses starting companies or if I don’t perform I don’t make money, period. And that’s uh, something you need to look at because how am I attracting people that really, what they do dictates the revenue of the company versus just showing up to complete a job.

 

Dr. Liz: I you know I’d be interested to put this back on you just for a second because I feel like when I’ve done research in this area, the companies that don’t have longevity are the ones that focus only on the money.

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: So, even in sales, so an example I was actually in sales, believe it or not, a long time ago I actually sold insurance door to door, yes

 

Devon: wow

 

Dr. Liz: I know you cannot believe that I actually did this and I actually did very well at it unfortunately, um but *laughter* when I say unfortunately but the thing was because then I was like okay, um but

 

Eric: Just focus on the money.

 

Dr. Liz: just focus on the money. What I found out, so it was basically we were selling and innuity, and um you know when they were selling us on selling for them, they made it sound like this was this great situation for anyone well you can get in there and you get in there and you talk about the poor elderly who are eating cat food because they can’t afford things and this is gonna prevent you from being in that situation, I mean it’s a very emotional sell and they had us literally almost memorize a script.

 

Devon: yeah

 

Dr. Liz: um that you did that you went in there and did and I actually did very well with it until I actually spent some time and I’m not really great with numbers I’ve said this many times numbers and I do not get along, but when I finally sat down and did the math and I realized that this actually was excellent for people who are like 28 to 38

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: it was great, they should buy it. But if you were younger than that, you were paying too much and if you were older than that you were paying too much. And, and once I figured that out, I couldn’t sell it anymore.

 

Devon: mm

 

Dr. Liz: and I had to quit. Thoughts? *laughter*

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Devon: what, what do you think caused that that if they had a value system that was there in place in the beginning, either A was it trans- transparency of communication? Or was it B, this is our target demographic and we believe in raising the value of this target demographic because it best suits them. Or, were you saying I couldn’t sell it anymore because my core value system couldn’t rip people off who’re outside of that age and that’s who they were aiming at.

 

Dr. Liz: See I think that was the thing. I think if the organization had been really transparent about this is the sweet spot, focus on these people, because this really does help them. And you know if somebody else wants to do it just explain to them you know what that looks like in their lives. But they didn’t do that, what they told us and I will say it was close to a brainwashing thing I was really young I was right out of college you know, and I, I was talking to them and, and when they would give their spiel to us and indoctrinate people into this culture, it was almost cult like with how they did it. They claimed that it was good for no matter who you met, that it was the ideal thing for them and I think that, I think okay thank you for asking that question because now I’m processing this and I think it was when I lost faith in leadership

 

Devon: Right.

 

Dr. Liz: That they were lying to me.

 

Devon: Cuz there’s no way they didn’t know that, they were just purely looking at the profit from both ends of that demographic. It cost them the most to have the demographic that it worked for because it was most effective for them which means the dollar amount was less, but for the people who had to pay more on either end of the scale, we were making more and that’s, and and let’s be honest like we live in America and for a lot of people that’s a value system. And if that’s a value system there’s plenty of people that can come work for you that would align with that value

 

Dr. Liz: mm hmm

 

Devon: As as crappy as that may feel for the vast majority of people, I need to be educated as a consumer, or my competition needs to come along and be the person that doesn’t lie to me and all of a sudden that other company disappears because they are fighting on my behalf and they’ve adjusted the product or the service to serve me in a better way than the company that I was conned on or sold on. So I think that value systems can vary, right?

 

Nancy: Yep

 

Devon: Clearly from leadership all the way down, welcome to America um right?

 

Nancy: Yeah

 

Dr. Liz: But I, but I think that’s a that’s a legitimate part of employment branding though. Is you, your value system may be, may- maybe it is make money maybe that is a value system and there is, there are a lot of people that would be right there that’s fine, just be really clear about this is what our value system is so that everybody’s on the same page.

 

Devon: yeah well and that and that’s engagement, right? They lost you and they lost a lot of sales because the transparency wasn’t there and they weren’t uh they were attracting people who believed in the lie instead of attracting people that would’ve believed in the truth of just being up front and honest.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah

 

Nancy: or maybe too young to know the difference, you know?

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah, yeah

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Dr. Liz: Well you know what, I- I was and I was, I yeah I mean I was very gullible back then.

 

Devon: What?

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah I know shocker

 

Devon: In your early 20’s?

 

Dr. Liz: I still am, yeah I know I still

 

*laughter*

 

Devon: hold on I can travel and work 20 hours a week, I can sell the products that this company really only has me in mind and the good of everybody else like right of course we’re all guilty of it but I think that’s the point, right?

 

Dr. Liz: sure

 

Devon: Just be uh it really doesn’t matter I think I would take truth and and and honesty over bullshit and lies and that’s fundamentally one of the differences I think today.

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Devon: The blessing behind millennials is they’re conned and sold and see so much bullshit

 

Dr. Liz:: mm hmm

 

Devon: every single day, that they intrinsically tune in to their intuition because that’s the only thing that’s gonna ma- does this feel right does this not feel right. And they’re gonna be waving the flag as they already are on a bunch of nonsense and it’s gonna be super powerful to watch companies and leadership crumble because they’re trying to use old tactics to make the um, machine work and the machine has changed, period in terms of how the game and process works. Um, you just, it is really interesting and working with a lot of millennials and having an an incredible team of millennials, not that I’m that much older, no joke Eric *laughter* um but uh I they just call you out on your bullshit.

 

Dr. Liz: mm hmm

 

Devon: and it’s so great and I think they’re starting to do that with a larger voice across the board.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah, I think honesty and authenticity are starting to hedge out that, that

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: You know charismatic kind of thing that, I mean charisma I think now has to have more authenticity and honesty then it did in the old days where they were just kind of flashy and fun and

 

Eric: and that’s something though that we can look at actually, bring to the surface. Companies used to not look at communication as something that they could brand and market, but today they can actually pride themselves on saying, you know what we have a clear direction and saw a path that is laid out for upward mobility I mean I know people that are in liquor sales and back to selling on commission right out of college, these students with stu- or previous students with student loan debt are working commission based jobs because they know what the trajectory will look like within 5 or 10 years they know what they’re going to be making they know the trips that they are gonna be able to go on to Hawaii or to Mexico if they exceed their quota, and so they’re not rewarded with a base at all but they do have a culture that values communication and a clear path for growth. Growth in their personal life, their professional life and otherwise, and the company is able to communicate that from the onset and so companies can actually now use communication and the ability to allow things like Dr. Liz references with micro learning and video systems that allow for someone to take a video and and shoot it out the ladder and now it’s not coming from upper management, it’s coming from them and the entire workforce is seeing that they were the one that came up with this concept, this idea to increase an efficiency or a process by even 10 or 15% can have a huge difference across the entire organization. So that communication now, being led from within is something that a company can say this is something that you’ll be recognized for

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Eric: and that you’ll be rewarded for and that is an intangible, again that you can’t necessarily look at how it affects the bottom line until you look at the long term and after you’ve actually implemented and instilled these, what is the difference and it’s hard to track just one at a time but you can look at, you know after you implement a full campaign and instill these into your company, 12, 18, 24 months later, not only did we sell more but let’s look at you know our cost of recruitment, let’s look at our cost of and productivity I mean you’ll be able to not just walk in the office on Monday and feel the difference, you’ll be able to look at the numbers and see the difference.

 

Devon: So value systems, communication and once those things are established you know we we are a company that comes in we do the employment branding side of this and the whole point in employment branding is if you have not gone down this process of figuring out values which then the values that dictate culture, and then that same culture has subcultures where the core value systems has a sense of belonging across the board in the entire company but then across those subcultures, give them the freedom to communicate, how do we fit in what do we believe in how do we inspire each other how do we develop each other? And through that, you then bring in an internal agency or an external agency and you look at that entire side of how do we attract A level talent? And are there any words of advice on creating the brand that might be a little bit different in terms of selling a product or service versus speaking to human about human capital.

 

Dr. Liz: mm

 

Eric. Great, great question and I’m glad that you brought that up because the authenticity of being able to show a day to day week by week uh environment within your company culture is super important and not just to millennials anymore. I mean we’re entertaining in conversations with Gen X and Baby Boomers that are having to go and re-engage in the workforce. They know that their retirement isn’t gonna have longevity but they’re in their legacy years and just like millennials they’re caring about who they work with and what is the social capital what is that contribution? So clearly being able to express that whether that’s through video whether that’s through you know a day in the life whether that is through the ability to show some of these subcultures or events that your company does. The more clearly you can educate your potential employee and not just consumer, the easier it is to be able to filter, you’re not gonna have now 10,000 people applying you’re gonna have 1,000 but those 1,000 are going to be above and beyond your wildest expectations because they align with their values. And they totally get to see what working at your establishment or your organization looks like and they’re going to perform and outperform uh that other 9,000 people that you didn’t want to waste your time interviewing anyways. So, you know it’s it’s really important here and I think that it brings up uh a great uh point is not just videotaping this and not just being able to brand it for consumers but looking at the numbers there I mean if it costs you 2 and a half times your mid-level management and employees salary to replace someone in between recruiting costs and training and now looking the intangibles of intellectual property the like if that person is being compensated, say, $60,000 how much more, how many more dodads do you need to sell to make up that 2 and a half times that $150,000 for every single person that leaves. You can do the math you know exactly what your profit margins are and what that looks like but recognize for every single time that that mid level management at $60,000 leaves how much more do you have to sell? Externally to recoup that bottom line and you gotta that into consideration and and address how valuable is this to us? How much are we potentially losing uh annually because we aren’t addressing this

 

Devon: How valuable is it to address it now and actually create a quality brand but equally as important backup that brand. A lot of people are gonna go and go oh, employment branding this is something new we’ve heard it a few times we should just hire an agency and or internally create a really cool brand but we never actually establish the values we never, we don’t have anything that backs it up, we put on a fake event, and we put on one little charity thing and raise $10,000 and look at us but then when I show up, it was a bunch of BS. That’s gonna cost you way more money than taking the time to really look at the infrastructure of the inside out approach. The inside being go back and really figure out what you stand for, what those values are, what does that culture look like? Who are the subcultures, how do we create systems and procedures that fit and benefit those subcultures as well as the overarching culture and then we can create the brand because we can now back it up.

 

Dr. Liz: and we’ve talked about this before, and culture is not the ping pong table or the foosball table or the beer tap, it’s it’s so much deeper than that and that’s that’s what creates the stickiness and I think that’s something that all of us, we love and understand is it’s really, you’ve got to get it implanted in the heart of every employee that they care.

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Dr. Liz: and that’s why you start with a values place because that’s what touches people that’s what gives people that motivation and that passion to kind of move forward is when okay this aligns with what I care about. And then as to Nancy’s point and then, you know the executive leadership and the upper leadership they have to model it.

 

Devon and Nancy: mm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: They can’t just lip service it because you almost do more harm than good if oh yeah that sounds good and then none of the leaders of the organization actually follow it. You’re you’re toast.

 

Devon: Which means be prepared to get rid of some people.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah

 

Devon: Across the board.

 

Dr. Liz: Well said.

 

Eric: Because if it’s just theory, you’ll be able to tell in 6 months when you’re getting just hammered on Glassdoor.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Eric: When your social capital and your reputation starts getting one stars because oh it sounded great but then people are leaving left and right and you’re now having to hire more because the morale continues just to

 

Devon: to sink

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Eric: Fall through the floor.

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Nancy: Well and that’s kind of an interesting point about the transparency is that not only from top down and being transparent about the values that you wanna really live by, but transparency in terms of employee engagement because we have all these social media outlets the people can, I’d be more likely to look at a company on Glassdoor then go to their website because when I read their website I’m like what does that mean

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Nancy: I can’t you know it’s really well written marketing ad but it doesn’t give you any insight into what the culture’s really about

 

Devon: It’s a bunch of fluff.

 

Nancy: You go to, it’s a bunch of fluff so I would much rather go and see you as much as I can on anything you know buying appliances whatever, go to all the different reviews and see what’s really being said because that’s what the that’s again a deeper value an added value of having that strong employee engagement, and that employee branding is because people will advertise for you. If they love where they’re at you’ve got that extra element if they hate where they’re at you’re gonna hear that too.

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Eric: and that’s you know, the social capital element of that is really interesting because whether it’s Glassdoor or whether it’s Yelp everyone’s a critic and are far more likely to contribute a harsh review than a positive one yet if you create a culture that rewards reviewing your company because they inherently understand the value of that, that cycle can either go in the positive direction or the negative direction.

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Nancy: mm hmm

 

Eric: and if you have a value of transparency and communication, and integrity, you can actually make it very easy for your employees to contribute a positive review and to film themselves at that career day or that park day and completely flip the script of what it means to be a contributor to this company.

 

Nancy: mm hmm, absolutely.

 

Devon: In the spirit of wrapping this up I’d love some last points and and starting with one that I actually encountered recently with Eric and Anne um, it takes time to figure this stuff out. We were speaking in front of an organization that um they’ve been around for a long time. And they didn’t include some of the most important people in their mission, in their vision, and when called out on that, it was an upheaval because there was a fear underneath getting too specific about who belongs in out entity and who should work for us and who should contribute to us and who are customer is and figuring out that archetype and figuring out that value system had some kickback because it was gonna take too much time to figure those things out and what if we turned away somebody that could potentially just be the person that shows up and be the person that gives or be the person that contributes on some level and I think the underlying thing was like one fear of losing out on money or potential money and a fear of it taking too much time and interfering with the day to day operation and my only challenge for people that are listening is it’s costing you way more now and in the long run to not figure this out.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah, a poor hire is very very very expensive because it kills morale you’ve got people and an again if people don’t believe in the process of how you hire too that you you have lip service these things matter and then all of a sudden you hire this person that doesn’t fit. You know that’s the thing we’re all critics now, we’re all observing we’re all deciding and and as we’re looking at you know you hired this person I mean it’s like cancer.

 

Devon: mm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: When you hire the wrong person and I’m glad you said something Devon about sometimes you gotta get rid of them and it’s really hard, especially for a manager when you spend all this time and you’ve hired this person and your name’s kind of attached to them and all of a sudden you find out they’re not working out, I mean it’s it’s hard to admit that and then have

 

Devon: Because it reflects on me as the hiring manager it reflects on everybody in the company it reflects, and I’d say the alternative to that is equally as true. A poor hire is costly and I think it’s potentially even more costly to hire al the right people and not back up why they showed up in the front door.

 

Dr. Liz: nice

 

Devon: Right, because now I could hire 10 new people and I lose all 10 because my culture and my value system do not back up the stuff that I put out into the world and it wasn’t truth. So either either end of the spectrum will cost you a lot if you do not take the time to figure this out and then live up to it. And again my challenge is this, my challenge is everybody has different intrinsic value systems, different leaders believe in different things. While I may not align with those it doesn’t matter, all that matters is there’s enough people that would that would help you grow your company. Do I think there needs to be better companies out there do I think there needs to be better leadership? Yes. But who am I to judge. The world will dictate whether they want to buy that product or not whether they want to work for you or not, whether that value system works or not, but at the end of the day just take the time to do it.

 

Dr. Liz: mm

 

Nancy: I agree.

 

Devon: Any last words from you guys?

 

Nancy: No, I think we covered a lot of different basis but it it really goes back to that critical communication, the values, the aut- authenticity um you know you’ve gotta have it all all together before you really try to establish and create that culture. You’ve gotta figure out what you want that to look like.

 

Eric: Amen

 

*laughter*

 

Nancy: I conquer.

 

Eric: My, my last words here would just be to simply summarize what we’re talking about in a conversation that I entertained with Kimble Musk. Kimble Musk is one of the founding members behind PayPal, he’s Elon Musk’s brother he’s done some incredible things launching the Kitchen Group, is on the board helping with Space X it’s massive things. And, he was at Denver Start Up Week I had the fortunate ability to sit at a round table with him and asked him you know being on the cutting edge, being a leader across food and travel and all of these things, how is it that you maintained this forward thinking ability and got people behind you and supporting you in this mission to be able to act as a catalyst so that it didn’t die? So that you know you’re 20 years out but you can’t wait for 20 years you gotta do the 20 year thing in like 5 years or less otherwise you’re not gonna have the capital to sustain it. His response cues into this perfectly it summarizes exactly what we’re talking about which is whether it’s consumers or whether it’s employees. Tomorrow’s businesses will be mission driven. We align around these values around mission and whether it’s in supporting and buying companies that have products and services which we align with or working for them. We are finding community we are finding tribe in a unique way today where technology is bringing us together uh on both ends of the spectrum and mission driven businesses will without a doubt be the industry leading companies int he respective fields. So now is the time to really take the ability to hone in what does that look like for you? And if you don’t want to be on the front end of this and you’re completely okay letting your competitors surpass you in time, then dope but recognize that you know the those that are will be leaders.

 

Devon: That’s right. Awesome stuff guys again I appreciate you Eric thanks for stopping in I know we’ll hear from you quite often as we continue these conversations are social capital integration everybody thank you for turning, tuning in and stay tuned for our next episode. Talk to you soon.

SoCap talks with Devon, Dr. Liz and Nancy

From Uber to Wells Fargo, today’s business news is filled with stories of poor corporate leadership and governance. SoCap co-founder and chief visionary officer Devon Kerns sits down with Nancy Holmes (PHR, CCP) of Newman Holmes Consulting, LLC, and Dr. Liz Selzer, founder and CEO of VP Mentoring Initiatives — two 20 plus-year veterans of the human resources and leadership development field — to discuss what leadership is, what it isn’t, and what makes a good leader.

Dr. Liz, as she prefers to be called, starts off the podcast with the premise that leadership is influence. It’s not about standing in front of the group and barking orders. It’s about standing in the middle of the group, gaining an understanding of individuals’ strengths, and influencing their decisions and actions, so that the group may move forward, as one.

Too many companies are content putting people in a box, and often it’s like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Good leaders are able to identify team members’ strengths and weaknesses and empower them to play to their strengths.

The gang goes on to cover the importance of onboarding and, almost as vital, offboarding, when it becomes obvious that a team member is not in the best position for his strengths. And, of course, any discussion on good leadership would incomplete without talking about Richard Branson, the epitome of strong leadership.

 

 

> View the Transcription Here < 

 

 

Welcome back to SoCap Talks, helping innovators build tomorrow, today. Now here’s your hosts, Devon Kerns and Eric Sutfin.

 

Devon: Today’s topic is around leadership.

 

*laughter* yay, my favorite topic honestly

 

Devon: Um, in terms of leadership I know there’s a lot happening in the news with poor leadership. And I think it’s a great way to start out in terms of what is and what isn’t leadership. So out of curiosity coming from you Dr. Liz and and maybe share a little bit about your background and why, um this is such a passionate topic and and I mean you’ve worked with entities like NASA and the air force around this topic, so what what are you really, who are you and what are you really

 

Dr. Liz: *laughing* Who am I?

 

Devon: Seeing in terms of leadership out there?

 

Dr. Liz: Well, um, just my experience of developing leaders now for probably over 20 years, that question ‘what is leadership are leaders made? Are they born? Is it as simple as the definition that leadership is influence?’ When I worked with a group of young women, leaders, a lot of them, they a lot of them well they were mothers and people who were, um, maybe not in a typical leadership position, but I still felt like they had influence and I wanted them to step like take one step further in their influence. I couldn’t use the ‘L’ word, that is, leadership…

 

Devon: Oh.

 

Dr. Liz: because um that kind of freaked people out. But I-I my personal belief, and I hope I have some disagreement here cuz I like a good discussion, I think leadership is influence. I think we lead, you can be a stay at home mom and you can still lead. You can lead your children, you can lead, uh the people around you, your friends, your family, by the way that you influence them. And I believe each person has unique areas where they can contribute to that kind of influencing people to do things and to model behavior and to make a difference.

 

Devon: So does that also mean that if I was leading, if I also had influence, any type of influence, if I was an influencer if I was a Instagram model, which check out Devon Kerns at, no no I’m kidding *laughter* um if I was an Instagram model and now I have a level of influence does that automatically put me in a position of leadership therefore I can step up good or bad because it’s around influence?

 

Dr. Liz: Well, yes because I think leadership is l-leadership is influence and it can be good or bad. I mean I think you can I mean, gosh one of the best leaders in history, and I hate to use him is Hitler, I mean he lead, he lead. And he started a world war, so

 

Devon: Yeah   

 

Dr. Liz: Um, and obviously he wasn’t necessarily that good of a person especially if you study him very much but uh, I don’t know. Nancy, what do you think?

 

Nancy: No I, I have to agree I think influence is the key component of leadership, um, good or bad um, you see people in positions that once they get that following, whether it’s good or bad, they can sway and influence people to either rise and join into their, um philosophies and their uh, um you know just who they are as a as a leader. Um, I actually studied um Hitler not too long ago having been to Munich, and how he got so many followers was because he tapped into intrinsic values that they needed, one,

 

Dr. Liz: Mmm hmm

 

Nancy: and they were extremely, you know, poverty stricken after World War I. And so he was able to pull those people together, um by the way he influenced their thought process of how they were going to get out of that issue. So,

 

Devon: So, influence is not, so in todays world it’s really interesting because a lot of people that might be listening to this assume that influence is the level of people that know you.

 

Nancy: Mmm.

 

Devon: *clears throat* Versus influence, according to what you’re saying, is being able to influence the emotion over some belief system or intrinsic value system, and being able to have influence over an individual…

 

Dr. Liz: Mmm hmm

 

Devon: By invoking that emotion and then getting them to align according to your belief system.

 

Nancy: Exactly.

 

Dr. Liz: I think that’s a good distinction.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: One of the reasons that I really stand by the leadership is influence piece is that one of my philosophies when working in a social capital industry is, I believe that all people should be developed, instead of just that top, you know your, your top performers. And I think that companies are much stronger in their social capital and have stronger cultures when they develop their whole, you know when they, they try at least I mean there will always be people will dig their heels in and don’t want to be developed and that’s on them. But, I think, especially with the younger generations, they want to be developed.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz: And they’re trying to move, I say up the ladder I think we’re getting away from hierarchical structures anyway, but uh I think, you know as they try to develop personally and professionally, they, it, you know a lot of them are very young and a lot of them really are just entering the workforce and, I don’t think we, we have to realize that they have a tremendous amount of influence.

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: And if we can really tap into that I think it really makes our company stronger.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm, mmm hmm.

 

Devon: Yeah that’s powerful, it’s it reminds me of a conversation we just had yesterday and we were talking about this with the um, rest of the SoCap leaders in our company, we were uh, sitting down with someone who’s young in our organization and, um uh actually two people, one, Dylan standing over here and we had a great conversation with him and he’s totally owning the leadership and the idea of stepping into that and then we’ve got a 21 almost 22 year old on board with us who, um we start, you know it’s an evolutionary process when you’re working with people. And to have an open and fluid company, to be able to watch where people are gonna thrive and where they’re dying,

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm

 

Devon: You and when we looked at this particular individual it was such a great and tremendous leadership um, ability he’s somebody that at 20 years old or 19 years old spoke at the White House.

 

Dr. Liz: Wow.

 

Devon: Right, and he spoke around things that he’s passionate about. He’s an adopted, uh kid and he has this passion for working with at risk youth. And he’s got this voice. We ended up putting him in a position where he loves connecting with people, he loves re- outreach.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: So we put him in the world of outreach, and then we also put the title of “bisdev” on him, and could he be a business development leader. And the reality is, he’s so great at outreach and he’s so great at inspiring and invoking emotion, but there was a disconnect there and this is that evolutionary and fluid process that we have to go through I think in companies today where, if you’ve got this young person in your group, and he’s actually not even a millennial he’s a gen-Z, if you’ve got this young person in your group and you’ve got a fluid and open transparent conversation around where could we put you, where do you fit in this organization? We realized he is great at leading and invoking emotion and inspiring people, but he’s not so great on the closing and connecting pace.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: And when you can look at that, that doesn’t really fit into “bisdev” but then we talked to him ‘what do you really want to do?’ And now he’s leading a movement with our organization and, and really gonna sit down and pitch to the entire organization on November 7th what he’s going to accomplish in a 12 month period, which just happens to be 2018 of November 7th 2018, where he’s gonna pitch to us what he’s gonna do in the next 12 months to inspire 18-21 year olds to vote…

 

Nancy: Mmm ooo.

 

Devon: In the Colorado election for governor. Which is the smaller turnout of any other, other election right?

 

Dr. Liz: Right.

 

Devon: So, he’s taking his influence, he’s taking his passion for evoking emotion and deciding to step into a leadership role with an intention and using his skill set instead of being in a box.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: And had we kept him in the box he wouldn’t have thrived.

 

Nancy: Right. Well and I think that’s what’s so important about any organization, um whether it’s you know this or stay at home mom is working within student volunteer programs, is really recognizing and understanding where people’s strengths are, where their

 

Dr. Liz: Yes

 

Nancy: Passions are, and helping them to thrive in that space, versus the other way around

 

Devon: Mmm hmm

 

Nancy: Where we’ve got this box we need somebody to fit into, well you know you’ve got 3 out of the 5 so we’re gonna force you in there anyway. Um, really identifying those strengths, strengths and leadership skills in somebody, um, I-I think is just huge. Another, kind of the flip side of that is promoting somebody because they’re so technically talented is, say a senior accountant *laughter* and they want to continue with their career growth and so, they’re promoted to the supervisor. Well, managing people versus crunching numbers are 2

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Nancy: Completely different skill sets.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Nancy: And, are you setting this person up for failure if you don’t groom them before they even step into that role?

 

Dr. Liz: It’s funny, we I just worked with a a company that, well not just worked, a little while ago, within the cable industry, and you have these cable techs that are just rocking it and doing so well, and then they get promoted to management and they don’t know the first thing about how to do that

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: And how to lead those teams because the skill set is really really very different.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: And that’s why I love what you said about identifying strengths. Let’s identify those people who actually have the strengths in the leading of teams.

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: You can still influence other ways I mean you can be a model as a cable tech and still lead an influence, and that’s fine. But, I saw it in sales too, and you probably have Devon, where you get the best sales guy, he’s bringing in all the numbers, and all of a sudden you promote him to be sales manager and they don’t do that well because that’s not the skill set that they have.

 

Devon: That’s right.

 

Dr. Liz: And so, I we-we developed um, some just very basic things to help people step into that kind of managerial leadership position that we hope is super practical that everybody can do. Uh, if they get put in that  management position and hopefully it will help them develop but I, you know there are just certain people that do better in those situations than others.

 

Nancy: Absolutely, and I think that as a team for SoCap to have somebody like Dr. Liz on staff to, um help with that before you push somebody into a position.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah.

 

Nancy: That they’re not prepared for.

 

Dr. Liz: Ready to do

 

Nancy: They’re not ready for maybe not even.

 

Dr. Liz: And maybe not ever be!

 

Nancy: Yeah!

 

Dr. Liz: They might, may not ever be that person.

 

Nancy: Yep.

 

Dr. Liz: They may just want to stay as a good cable tech.

 

Nancy: Just feeling that pressure that ‘well it is a promotion, I’m getting more money so why wouldn’t I take it’ when they’re in it for 30 days, 60 days and they’re hating every moment of it.

 

Devon: So what’s interesting about what you guys are saying is I look at you know as I’ve worked with now thousands of people um in terms of not just developing leadership but sitting down with um people who have been put in positions of leadership where they may not have wanted to be there, and or, the irony is they’re making less on salary than they were in commissions, particularly in.

 

Dr. Liz: Right *laughter*

 

Devon: The business of sales, right?

 

Dr. Liz: Yes, mmm hmm.

 

Devon: And yet, they’re so proud to get that next title because inherently, people love moving up. And do we need to change the conversation of advancement means moving up the ladder when in service of the company itself, the entity.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: Advancing somebody who has a great skill set but may not be a great leader.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm

 

Devon: as something that needs to happen but if I advance the person who’s been there the longest or the person with the greatest skill sets, recognizing them by advancing them into a position of leading others, is that a fundamental disconnect that’s happening in companies that paralyzes the actual growth of the entity?

 

Nancy: Absolutely.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah I,

 

Nancy: And I think for you to have such an open candid conversation back and forth with this young gentleman to find out, ‘are you comfortable with this? Is this something that you might be interested in?’ That doesn’t happen very often.

 

Devon: Mmm.

 

Nancy: You know not in my experience have I seen people have tho-that type of dialogue. So rarely when you do, and then it’s like ‘wow, that manager’s really looking out for the best interest of that, of that individual.

 

Devon: Mmm.

 

Dr. Liz: Well and I also think that millennials and gen-z’s they, they don’t look to titles as much as long as they are being reaffirmed in significant ways and I say significant. So, what would a culture look like if you were absolutely in your area of strength regardless of, of position. I know that Google does this, that as a leader, it’s not a hierarchical move.

 

Devon: Mmm.

 

Dr. Liz: They don’t get more money, they just have to do, they have to serve. And I hope we will get to talking about good leadership traits later in the show, um but I think that our structures have to look really different now.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: And one of the things, I went to a conference uh not too long ago and I love this they had this they have this whole system of recognition. Where everyone in the company has a certain amount of money that they cannot give to themselves, but they have a certain amount of money throughout the year that they can give to people who do a good job at what they’re doing.

 

Devon: Mmm.

 

Dr. Liz: And it allows people to be recognized, not just the big leaders that are the showy people, but it’s that person who, man they got all that data crunched for you on time and did it well and that made you do better in your project, and they get to give out this money throughout the year and by the end and they’ve also shown that it’s much better than a yearly bonus because a yearly bonus lasts about the good the good feeling of that lasts about 6 weeks. But if you’re doing these constant pieces of recog-recognition for good work and yes, it’s monetary but that’s fine.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz: I mean I think that’s awesome. And they actually have what they would’ve put at put in bonuses, and they just give that out to ev-everyone has some so that they and they have to use them by the end of the year.

 

Devon: Right.

 

Dr. Liz: And I- I think that might shift this whole that we automatically have to be in this titled position

 

Devon: Promote to a title instead of recognizing for the hard work

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah

 

Devon: And recognizing for getting shit done.

 

Nancy: Yeah.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Nancy: So let me give you an example of how a program like that can not work so well *laughter*

 

Dr. Liz: Okay *laughter* Good, I like I like the anti.

 

Nancy: *laughter* true story, um worked with an organization and they came out with these ace awards, and it was really to recognize people for going above and beyond their normal positions. And, they had previously been awarded fairly easily, but it was for that very reason you know, to recognize this isn’t normally within your job description but you went out and spent 6 weeks doing college recruiting, you know. So gave this person the *inaudible* award well then they wanted to revise it and revamp it. New leadership came in, and the bar was so high…

 

Devon: Mmm.

 

Nancy: That people were, it- it was almost more defeating and discouraging to managers to even attempt to go through the process for the $1,000 bonus, that it completely diluted and d- you know, diminished the value of getting that reward. Because the standards had been changed to a point where, you know yes it should be something outside of your normal routine job but um it really came to a point where managers are like ‘it’s not even really worth going’ you know ‘going to beg and borrow, steal, grovel to the CEO for 1,000 bucks.

 

Dr. Liz: Hmm. Well that’s a good example, one it wouldn’t work.

 

Nancy: Yeah so I think having a well designed.

 

Dr. Liz: Yes.

 

Nancy: Um really making sure that it targets the right types of behaviors and what those guidelines look like.

 

Devon: Is it micro instead of macro?

 

Dr. Liz: See that’s

 

Nancy: Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz: That’s what I was gonna say, I think that’s the difference. In this case, you you are supposed to give them like out every month, and it doesn’t have to be for something that’s crazy awesome, it’s just ‘hey you did your job and you did it well thank you.’

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Nancy: Right.

 

Dr. Liz: So I think, you’re right

 

Devon: Using currency as gratitude as well as recognition

 

Nancy and Dr. Liz: Yeah

 

Devon: From your peers, not necessarily a top down recognition.

 

Nancy: Absolutely.

 

Dr. Liz: Right.

 

Nancy: And it can be so.

 

Dr. Liz: Right. That’s a good differentiation, thank you for making that.

 

Nancy: Yeah. It can be so minute too. I volunteer and a gentleman that comes in and does kind of the heavy lifting for us, um came in the other day and we were just talking about the whole volunteer experience and um things that we both felt could uh, be better based a really on part of our conversation last, um week when we talked about uh recognition and um retaining volunteers and he got choked up when he told me that one of the other organizations he supports just gave him a thank you card.

 

Dr. Liz: Aww.

 

Nancy: There wasn’t a.

 

Dr. Liz: Written probably.  

 

Nancy: It was written.

 

Dr. Liz: Which is awesome.

 

Nancy: There was no Starbucks gift card in it *laughter*, nothing. He got teared up. You know, 65 year old man who just that’s his pleasure in life at this point he’s retired, so he gives to probably three or four different organizations every week, and he was choked up just because he got a handwritten card.

 

Dr. Liz: So this brings up a good point, because not everybody likes to be appreciated the same way.

 

Devon: Mmm hmm

 

Nancy: Yes.

 

Dr. Liz: And there is a book, the 5 languages of appreciation

 

Nancy: Uh huh

 

Dr. Liz: It’s written by one of the guys that did the 5 love languages

 

Devon: Mmm

 

Nancy: Uh huh

 

Dr. Liz: And, he goes into you know there’s its different kinds of um, recognition that different people like. Some people would hate to be called up in front of a group and recognized, and others would just live for that right?

 

Devon: Like me *laughter*

 

Devon: Actually I’d rather be doing the recognizing that’s what, that’s what my reward is yeah.

 

Dr. Liz: There you go. So, um I think we do need to keep that in mind that this, my example was with monetary but I think there’s you have to kind of keep in mind what do people really appreciate?

 

Nancy: True.

 

Dr. Liz: And that’s where good leaders get to know their teams and know

 

Nancy: Absolutely.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz: And know what they enjoy and what they need.

 

Nancy: Yeah. Know your audience.

 

Devon: So, circling this back around the- we-we had to steer off there for a minute to really recognize that recognition is important; not necessarily advancement in terms of leadership.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: And, on the topic of leadership, if we’re not advancing but we’re recognizing for the hard work and we’re really seeking leadership who would advance in a company, and or instead of advancing is it important to look for great leadership and bring them in to continue that process of recognition as well as motivation as well as everything that comes along with leading these teams and companies. What is important to look for from your team to advance that person into a leadership role and or what is important to look for in terms of bringing somebody in who makes a great leader?

 

Nancy: I feel like empowering employees to in in addition to the recognition but empowering them to do what they really want and love to do. That’s where they’re going to you know really um thrive and be successful um again going back to here’s the job description get somebody into the box versus hiring somebody recognizing all of the different talents and skill sets that they bring. And then empowering them to make, to influence the organization. So, prime example I’ve got a client who has a landscape business and they hired on an intern for the summer. He’s fluent in Spanish, they’ve got a big population of employees who speak Spanish, he’s actually gone out to the shop, out into the field and gotten to know them on a person basis, speaking Spanish certainly helps. But, he recognized that there were some operational issues going on where they weren’t bringing the tools into the shop to get repaired because it took too long and then they couldn’t get the hours of work, so they were jimmy-rigging their own tools. So here’s a guy, you know in school going for his MBA, took it upon himself had that initiative to go out and find what you know how-how is the organization working? Good things, bad things? You know how can I make a difference? How can I make an impact I mean as a millennial? Um, and so he’s done that in different pockets of this organization…

 

Dr. Liz: That’s smart.

 

Nancy: and has just wooed the management because they’re so impressed by the initiative and it’s really a bottom up approach. He didn’t have a fancy title; he’s just an intern, um so when we talk about influence and and uh I think you know recognizing and an- leadership. Recognizing and empowering are both two really important traits.

 

Dr. Liz: And I think that speaks to empowering and helping everybody step into their personally best place for leadership. I think there’s a different question that we maybe want to talk about which is, what okay if you really are looking for leaders to lead groups okay so this gets us passed the influence piece, which and now I’m gonna sort of contradict myself; what I said at the beginning but I think there are certain people that do you do lead you do help step into a leadership position where they’re actually leading a team, and I think there’s certain characteristics that help people there, I-I have found two that are really critical. One is, well actually three, the first one is um is a a real sense of humility. So when I say real sense of humility, meaning humble people don’t put themselves down. Humble people absolutely know what their strengths are, they’re confident in them, but they don’t see their strengths as better than everybody else’s. So I think it’s that it’s that realistic humility is the first thing. I think that the second thing is being a servant leader, which means empowering people.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: So how do I help people really step into what they’re good at and step into their strengths. And then the final thing is authenticity. Um, be you know being very real about who they are and what they have to offer without any condescension, so.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: Specifically, when you’re hiring a leader or looking for characteristics that make a great leader, what are those?

 

Dr. Liz: That, I well like I would say it would be humility, being a servant leader, and being um being authentic but I also think casting vision is also very very important for a leader. If you’re leading a group, you need to help every person on your team understand how they fit into the mission of your organization.

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: They need to know that what they’re doing is important, regardless of title, because that’s what makes them wake up in the morning and want to come to work. Is that I’m making a difference and it matters what I do and I’m part of something bigger. And I think again that’s something that’s so important to the younger generations, they want to be part of something that matters. They want to be, they don’t want to be part of you know there’s certain companies that are having a terrible time recruiting right now, because they’re seen as big business and unethical. And then you’ve got the groups like a Google or whatever who, they can they can pick from whoever they want.

 

Nancy: Mmm. And I just have to add integrity, I think is so – uh anyone that I work with

 

Dr. Liz: Yes.

 

Nancy: You know whether it’s going to a doctor’s office or you know, a store wherever, you know when I’m not seeing that level of integrity and respect and um professionalism especially in a position of leadership, I can’t follow anyone who doesn’t have.

 

Devon: Mmm hmm

 

Nancy: A good strong sense of general respect and integrity.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah, look at look at the Weinstein stuff that came out and different people that that we we find out that they’re ‘I didn’t do that’ and then we found out that they did and they’re done. *laughter*

 

Dr. Liz: You know, it’s better the ones that actually own it right up front actually do a little bit better than the ones that don’t.

 

Nancy: Or you’ve got Bill O’Reilly paying out 32 million.

 

Dr. Liz: Oh my goodness.

 

Nancy: dollars and has, you know factual information that, that’s false allegations. And I’m thinking, ‘and you’re paying 30 uh 32 million dollars for faults?

 

Devon: So what, what is it about these folks that allows us to put them in the position of leadership? What how, how do they end up there if, if what you’re telling me, leadership is based on being a servant leader and integrity and everything else, and yet time after time after time we see shitty leadership and then it ultimately comes out.

 

Nancy and Dr. Liz: Yeah.

 

Devon: But we’re talking several decades now,

 

Nancy: Right.

 

Devon: of leaders.

 

Nancy: It’s greedy.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah.

 

Nancy: It’s flat out greedy.

 

Devon: So that determines leadership?

 

Dr. Liz: Well no I think longevity still is about what we just talked about. Those that are leaders over time. If you look at Billy Grahm, and regardless of your feelings about his religious views, he has advised, I think was Dwight D. Eisenhower his first president he advised?

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: He has been a leader, he’s he has all the the things that we have just said and he, through every political group, he has lead those presidents.

 

Devon: Mm hmm.

 

Ar. Liz: And he has advised them, and I think longevity is one piece but there’s also, people can influence, and you can do it with the hammer, for a while.

 

Devon: Mm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: It works, I mean like we talked about with Hitler, you- it can happen. Uh a Weinstein I mean everybody was afraid to say stuff about him

 

Nancy: Yeah

 

Dr. Liz: I mean he intimidated them, and that is one kind of leadership, and unfortunately it does work. I don’t think it works in the long term and I don’t think it creates good working environments, which is what we’re after right?

 

Nancy: I think the people around it don’t call em out soon enough,

 

Dr. Liz: No they don’t.

 

Nancy: Like Weinstein. Don’t call em out soon enough because they’re part of that gravy train. They’re part, their income is dependent upon how well they align with him, or how often they turn another cheek, so.

 

Devon: So we’re talking about some extremes here and yesterday we were sitting down with a guy who uh-um works on negotiation for sales teams, and um, he was walking about a company that he used to work for where they had a merger and acquisition take place, and as those companies merged they brought in a new CEO, the uh equity firm brought in a new CEO. They didn’t use anyone to assess this person’s leadership skills and he pretty much demolished not one, but both

 

Dr. Liz: Oh no!

 

Devon: Entities through his leadership.

 

Dr. Liz: Wow.

 

Devon: Unintentionally. Right so he wasn’t necessarily a Harvey Weinstein, he wasn’t a jackass doing a bunch of horrible things to people but he just lacked poor leadership skills.

 

Dr. Liz: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: Do you think that being a servant leader, uh I- I mean I could want to serve people all day long I meet people on the street all day long that are great servant leaders, but if I put them in charge of $100 million company, it could crumble.

 

Dr. Liz: Well, yes and no. See I, for me servant isn’t going out and doing anything for everybody as soon as they need it.

 

Devon: Mm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: To me being a true servant leader is knowing your team and then empowering them, cuz that is how you serve them.

 

Devon: Mm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: So maybe my terminology is a little confusing.

 

Devon: So how would you change that away from the fluffy feel good factor of servant leadership and what would you say the characteristics are like what you describe? What other ways am I, is it vision combined with the ability to recognize talent? And motivate talent?

 

Dr. Liz: Yes.

 

Devon: Inspire talent?

 

Dr. Liz: Absolutely and I think that empower- maybe we should just use an empowering leader, maybe that’s better?

 

Nancy: Mm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: But keep in mind empowerment isn’t all about telling you everything that you do well, which is important, but it’s also holding you accountable to goals and um knowing your team and knowing where their strengths are and and working together with synergy, which *laughing* I know is not a word you enjoy but I love that word. I just love it when people really when they’re all their strengths are working together and they they synergistically create something more than one plus one.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz: And, um I think that an empowering leader is not somebody, I mean, I- I think of some of the best leaders that I’ve had were the ones that will tell me, um when I’m doing well and when I need to change things. And I had a leader who, probably is one of the best leaders I’ve ever met, was a woman and I remember after we had a corporate change that I was really upset about, uh and I had I- I’m one of these people that wears my heart on my sleeve, and she called me in her office and she said ‘if you’re gonna go to the next level, you need to not get so emotional’ and she said ‘people enjoy you when you’re so positive and upbeat’ but she said that ‘reverse of that when they see that you are upset, it wrecks what’s going on here.’

 

Devon: Mm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: And I, so she’s not, so when I’m saying empowering, she was empowering me, uh but she was not she wa- it wasn’t like she was making me feel good.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz: I mean she was telling me ‘I care enough about you to let you know how you’re coming across to me.’

 

Devon: She wasn’t always giving you a trophy

 

Dr. Liz: No, no trophies for everybody.

 

Devon: And sometimes it was a swift kick upside the head but it was with the intent of growing you.

 

Dr. Liz: Yes.

 

Nancy: But that I think is what makes for a good mentor, a good leader, someone who is going to identify all of the different skills and talents that you may have that recognize if you want to succeed, these are the things you’re going to need to do.

 

Devon: Mm hmm.

 

Nancy: Or not do.

 

Devon: I think one of the interesting things I’ve learned from JP Flam with Green Peak Partners who assesses um you know the CEO, C-Suite level leadership. It is, he’s found that the greatest leaders have a combination of EQ and IQ, emotional intelligence combined with the smarts that it would take to play in that particular industry.

 

Nancy: Right. Kind of to answer back to your question earlier, can you take somebody who has good man- a leadership skills and put them into a high tech, multi-million dollar business? Not necessarily, that doesn’t make them a bad leader, but you- they need to be in the right position. You could have a kid in high school who has influence and leadership skills with no title, no pay n- nothing other than uh a sports te- you know captain of a sports team or just carries that charisma, the emotional IQ, all of the- has the integrity, the honesty, the humility, all of those personal characteristics. With,

 

Dr. Liz: The self-aware.

 

Nancy: With nothing other to gain other than to influence other people and create a positive environment where it’s work or play or volunteer.

 

Devon: It was also interesting, so when you’re talking about taking a great leader and putting him into tech he actually found that in many cases, it does workout as long as the person has a trajectory.

 

Nancy: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: So in other words, there are individuals who function at an average level, and then there are great people who may be put int positions of leadership that have an upward trajectory in terms of growth, developing themselves, that emotional intelligence combined with IQ, and if they always have a trajectory, uh and one example was he he was working with a company that was looking for a CEO in the gaming industry, Las Vegas slot machines and all this other stuff. Typically, they have a tendency to, I don’t know if this is the right word to use or not, but inbreed right? *laughter* Pull people from other gaming spaces. There happened to be a gap in the, um, uh interview process where the normal person wasn’t the right person interviewing, and they were interviewing a CEO from a completely different industry. But, they found his trajectory was massive; he had already built several huge companies. And, they brought him into the gaming industry and there was a lag time where he didn’t have vertical growth out of the gate because he didn’t understand the industry. However, once he started moving along and started learning about the gaming industry,

 

Nancy: Mm hmm

 

Devon: His vertical growth was almost straight up in terms of the growth of the company and the growth of the leadership and the growth of everything in terms of sales and revenue, because they were patient enough to give him that uh, uh distance in order to learn. But then all of a sudden he went faster and quicker than anybody else and made them the number one company in the gaming industry,

 

Dr. Liz: You know, Daniel Golman is the one that came up with EQ, emotional intelligence and all of that. And he says, claims in a way that high EQ actually raises your IQ 20 points, which I think is very interesting.

 

Nancy: Hmm.

 

Devon: Thank god.

 

Dr. Liz: And I would say it’s true. You know I mean if you look at the ones because it it’s to your point, this guy maybe didn’t know all the technical stuff, but the minute he got it, boom.

 

Devon: Yeah, and I do think we have got a a a a structure issue starting way before you get into a company, around leadership, and it starts in schools because we recognize IQ,

 

Dr. Liz: Yes

 

Devon: Over and over and over and over again and we put such a strong emphasis on IQ when in fact, leadership is predominantly based on EQ.

 

Dr. Liz: And, like we talked about in our millennial show, I- the younger generations are lacking in that largely because the way they are socializing right now is through technology, and through, you know a lot of how they portray themselves, is how they think people want to be portrayed and they’re living double lives and, and being dis- I say dishonest in that they’re, they’re presenting two different things. They’re fracturing themselves and I

 

Devon: My real life versus my social media,

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah exactly and I think helping them really learn the skills for EQ and they can be taught. Now there’s certain people that just have it in spades, um they just do they get it

 

Devon: Thank you, thank you.

 

Dr. Liz: *laughing* they’re wise. And then there’s those who don’t.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz: And so but I think you can certainly sharpen the level of that with anyone.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Nancy: Mm hmm, mm hmm.

 

Devon: So, one of um *clears throat* my favorite human beings on the planet and the more I get to know about this person the more I truly respect him as a leader and I strive to come from his space not only as a visionary, but as a human being and it’s Richard Branson.

 

Dr. Liz: Yes, I love him.

 

Devon: This guy is incredible and he um fortunately, you know he not only walks the talk in terms of his leadership and I’m, I have seen this not necessarily personally, but through JP the gentleman that I was just talking about and another buddy Jeff, who had been on the island with Branson. And as an example, being that servant leader there’s an entire article here in, um the entrepreneur magazine where he’s talking about really, money isn’t the thing he’s searching for.

 

Nancy: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: In fact, he didn’t even start out thinking about that. He started out with a mission that mattered to him,

 

Nancy: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: Back when he was wanting to create a magazine and be an editor of a magazine in, the Vietnam War, and his passion behind not wanting to move forward with this and that lead him and motivated him and moved him and today, you know taking those micro steps like buying a 747 to start Virgin Airlines but then, um being that servant leader and constantly looking at those strengths and constantly looking at how do I inspire people through my actions first

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: and then how to I really show up for people and, he talks about take the time to take a selfie with somebody.

 

*laughter*

 

Devon: Right if you are an influencer if you are that person that people look up to, s- take 30 seconds and say hi and thank you and it’s just the way he comes uh uh the way he approaches life. And I think a large part of it comes from this quote that’s at the top of a picture here where he says ‘nobody ever learned  anything by listening to themselves speak.’

 

Dr. Liz: *laughing* I love that.

 

Devon: And if you, if that is a value to you, then you really start to see the world a little bit different, right? Being a leader that listens,

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: you begin to really develop the skill set of having emotional intelligence and how you show up to inspire.

 

Nancy: Right.

 

Devon: To have those tough conversations.

 

Dr. Liz: I was just reading an article yesterday that, that was a great study on how leaders who are lifelong learners, again that trajectory idea I think is all part of that, that they’re always and they’re listening. They’re always looking to learn

 

Devon: Mm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: and understand and they’re curious, uh that they are the ones that again have more longevity than the ones that have a lot of schooling and all of that and it’s funny, I’ll just say in the side, with all of the schooling that I have with the degrees that I have, I have, I didn’t really- I mean I guess it gave me kind of a foundation

 

Devon: Mm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: to go from. But honestly it’s just- that really showed me how much I didn’t know, and it it did encourage me to be a lifelong learner. Than you can you know, if you constantly are trying to learn from other people, that’s what makes you interesting and that’s what makes you effective.

 

Devon: Mm hmm. And, and it’s easy to feel recognized when you’re heard. Going back

 

Dr. Liz: Yes, oo good.

 

Devon: to that listening skill. Right, if I am in a position of authority; in a position of listening and I’m focused less, less on me, how much of an impact can I have if I’m just there and present with you and hearing the thing, um that you need me to hear? And what you’re really saying and looking I think great leadership also comes from being able to see behind those onion layers right? Get to the point quicker.

 

Dr. Liz: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: Get to the, get to the not the solution quicker, if somebody comes in and they’re complaining about something that’s happening in the company or something that’s happening in their life, how can you feel beyond what they’re really saying because the thing that they might be saying the person that they might be complaining about that did X, Y, and Z to them, there’s another layer that they’re really telling you. And so the listening isn’t just hearing the words that are coming out of somebody’s mouth, it’s feeling the truth behind their words and feeling deeper and really getting to the problem,

 

Nancy: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: that’s arising right? How can I serve this person by having maybe a tough conversation and saying ‘here’s what you need to own in that particular situation’ because what we really discover is everybody we encounter is typically a mirror of the worst part of ourself or the best part of our self.

 

Dr. Liz: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: And, if I’m sitting there and engaging how can I get to that point to help them reflect on their role in that engagement and that negative engagement or positive engagement. I reward the positive and I’m willing to have the tougher conversation around ‘how did you play a role in inspiring that negative behavior out of that person?’

 

Nancy: Yeah absolutely.

 

Dr. Liz: That’s so good.

 

Nancy: Well and I think it translates, yeah

 

Dr. Liz: That’s so good, sorry.

 

Nancy: It translates to personal relationships as well. When there’s a confrontation, it may not have, as you said, anything to do with what was said in, you know out on the floor. There’s an un, unmet need there.

 

Devon: Mm hmm.

 

Nancy: And that’s what you need to listen for, is is that person not feeling respected.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Nancy: You know it’s not that so and so said this or that, it’s that it’s an ongoing need of feeling, of needing to be heard, needing to be respected, and if that’s not happening, you know whether you’re a supervisor of 3, or you know hundreds, um recognizing how everyone is wired so different, and yeah you can have those technical skills, I have a client right now that they’re got a genius working on their staff *laughter* but he’s blown through 4 employees

 

Dr. Liz: Oh damn.

 

Nancy: in the 4 months that I’ve been working with him. Because he doesn’t have that emotional IQ; he doesn’t have

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Nancy: zip zero *laughter*

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Nancy: *laughing* of any type of leadership skills. To, to know how to manage and, again somebody who, we’ve talked about putting him into an individual contributor role, because he doesn’t have, I don’t know if I’ve ever met anyone with less emotional

 

Dr. Liz: Oh dear.

 

Nancy: intelligence, to be honest. *laughter* And then it’s, so it’s a challenge.

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Nancy: How do we, how do how do we reconcile this, you know if we need that technical knowledge, that genius as they claim him to be, um without annihilating the rest of the workforce.

 

Devon: Mm hmm.

 

Dr. Liz: One of the first skills I train on when I train leaders is listening and being curious. It’s just, you just, that’s what makes good leaders.

 

Nancy: Ask questions.

 

Dr. Liz: I mean I think it’s such a good point I love your quote, I’m gonna have to get that quote cuz I like it *laughter* put it in my quote list.

 

Devon: It’s, the whole article is incredible as far as his story and the question and answer dialogue with the editor of the of the piece. But so, you- you know another piece to this and then we’ll wrap up um, how important as a leader is it to recognize when somebody is cancer in the company and to get rid of the cancer as quick as possible?

 

Dr. Liz: Incredibly important.

 

Nancy: Critical.

 

Dr. Liz: And no one ever wants to do it.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz: But they bring everyone else down. And, I mean I think you owe them time to talk with them and put them on some kind of a development process to help them to make sure that

 

Devon: The warning

 

Dr. Liz: they yeah the warning. But if people see that going on and they see you not doing anything, it’s so demotivating to the rest of the team. And they get frustrated and it creates, like you said, you know the different conflicts that really wouldn’t even be happening if that person wasn’t there

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Dr. Liz: And I know I’ve had to manage people out of an organization, and it’s one of the, honestly one of the best things that I’ve done. I have a great example of one gal, she um, she was, and a she wasn’t a cancer as in a bad attitude, which I think is the worst thing

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Dr. Liz: by far. But she just wasn’t good at her job.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz: She kept losing files, I mean she was our administrative assistant and she kept losing all our files and, you know a lot of what we were doing was content and stuff you can’t lose these files right

 

Devon: It’s like the, it’s like the field goal kicker for a football team, you’ve got one frickin job *laughter*

 

Dr. Liz: Thank you!

 

Devon: Make it between the two posts, dammit.

 

Dr. Liz: *laughing* that’s right *laughter*

 

Devon: I can understand a 63 yard field goal but for God’s sakes, when it’s 20 yards make the damn.. right

 

Dr. Liz: That’s right.

 

Devon: Frickin Denver Broncos, sorry I’m going off here

 

Dr. Liz: No no, it’s true. So, anyway and I you know we had that conversation and what I, what was interesting was, and I had been talking to her, you know over time and I finally said you know ‘do you feel like you are doing a good job? I mean are you happy here?’ And once we had really built a good enough trust relationship, she could open up and say you know, she goes ‘I hate that I’m not doing a good job’ she goes ‘I’m even trying to get lessons from my husband; he’s trying to help me get better’ and and because this was, it was a nonprofit where people donated their money

 

Devon: Mmm.

 

Dr. Liz: And I had to say you know ‘I owe it to the people who donate their money to this organization, that I make the very best use, of the money that we spend’ and I said ‘I feel that we can have somebody who is gonna be better at this job’ and I said ‘I believe that you will be wonderful at something else.’

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Dr. Liz: And so we talked to her, talked her through that and tried to help her find some other things, and I actually was at an event, probably 6 months later and she ran up to me and gave me the biggest bear hug and she said ‘I am so happy, thank you for firing me.’ And I was like ‘I didn’t fire you, you decided to leave after we discussed it’ but, she said yeah she said ‘I’m actually doing art therapy with children’ and she goes ‘I love everyday of my job.’

 

Devon: Yeah. Yeah how how I think the warning period and and thinking through how to exit someone,

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm, well

 

Devon: yeah well, is probably one of the most effective things you can do,

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: in general not just for the company but for the individual. The warning period is really interesting and it’s not even that it’s a warning period but it’s, it’s again being that great leader where you can look at someone and recognize that there’s a disconnect. They may be a great skilled person at the thing that they’re doing, but when they’re not performing well you’ve got to be able to sit down with that person and coach them and help them and serve in a way of really, and again getting to that onion layer piece of what’s really behind why they’re lacking; why they’re falling behind. And when you have the talent to do that and all of a sudden there is change in them, through that warning period if you wanna call it that,

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: through that transformation, if you can find and dig deep and figure out I think actually now that I’m talking about this, every leader in a company should go through a program to learn how to extract greatness out of people whether they belong in that company or not. But if they’ve got a skill set and they’re doing the skill set well, but they start underperforming, to know how to coach out, and and really extract the reason why they’re not functioning well. And then inspire a change, when you inspire that change, all the sudden the repercussion and the ripple effect of that person performing at an elite level, is incredible. A great example is actually another gentleman, uh uh Mark who, he has so much passion for everything he does. And he’s this incredible mind in production. He’s run thousands persons events and all these great things and we sat down, we went on a company retreat and he worked with uh uh JP, and JP just kind of extracted a couple bullet points as to what’s really the underlying reason why you’re so passionate about what you do? And how can we focus on bold positive action? And he actually encouraged him to go get a tattoo, whether it’s permanent or not *laughter* of BPA, bold, positive, action right, and that was his chant, his call. And I’ll tell ya, I mean I have n- the the transformation that came from that one conversation with a skill set,

 

Nancy: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: and a tremendous skill set applied to somebody that is taking bold, positive action in the direction that he wants to, uh he’s doing way more than production. He’s brought 4 or 5 massive clients to the table that will hopefully be closing here soon and all kinds of momentum has come from that movement and it shifted the culture of the company as well.

 

Nancy: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: It’s inspired everybody around to do more and be more.

 

Nancy: Yeah.

 

Devon: On the flip side of that, if you’ve got somebody that is underperforming because they don’t belong in that position like you’re talking about, and they’re not in that space where they feel like they can take that bold, positive action where they feel like they are doing something that matters.

 

Nancy: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: It’s contradictive to their skill set

 

Nancy: Yeah.

 

Devon: It’s contradictive to their personality. Maybe it is a skill set but they just learn the skill set because our society says go learn to do something, but it’s not really the thing that inspires me, and you’re screwed.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah.

 

Nancy: Or you have the skill set for it but it’s not your passion,

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Nancy: it’s not what gets you excited,

 

Devon: That’s right.

 

Nancy: you’re great with numbers you could be great in accounting but working as a bank teller? Shoot me dead. *laughter*

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Nancy: You know, you just can’t do it.

 

Devon: And, and in that exit, how do you get that person to recognize, ‘I’ve worked with you for 6 months now, I’ve worked with you for a year here is what you’re great at and you need to go do that thing.’

 

Nancy: Go find it.

 

Devon: Screw what the rest of the world says, go do that thing and all of a sudden they end up picking up the phone and calling you and saying that firing or that quitting was the greatest thing that ever happened to me.

 

Nancy: Yeah. I probably spend about 75% of my time with my clients doing that very thing, helping them recognize to get the right person in the right chair, but if it doesn’t work out, how do, we’ve already invested months, maybe a couple years into this person, how do we really dig down, you know do a deep dive, find out what happened, what changed, maybe they were great when they came on board but something’s gone south terribly south. They are that cancer to the rest of the organization. How do you address that and turn it around? And I had a similar conversation with a gal where I said ‘why, why are you here?’ I, after a half hour, 45 minutes of her telling me all the things that were rotten and horrible about the company and her manager and everything else I said ‘well can you tell me why you’re here? What keeps you here 12 years?’

 

*laughter*

 

Devon: Wow.

 

Nancy: And I think it was, no one had asked her that. No one had sat down and said ‘what do you like what don’t you like?

 

Devon: Mmm

 

Nancy: Are there ways that you’ve gotta few support staff; you could hand some of this off? Are you willing to hand it off or is that that part of that control mechanism so, peeling back the layers but addressing uh cancer in the organization or a mismatch

 

Dr. Liz: Mismatch

 

Nancy: in the skill set to the to the job is, is critical.

 

Devon: So let’s wrap this up real quick and Nancy, what’s the one thing that you think from the HR perspective that makes a great leader?

 

Nancy: Yeah. Uh, great integrity and great communication, being able to have those

 

Dr. Liz: Oh, we didn’t say communication that’s so good

 

Nancy: Communication! Having those candid conversations, um being open, being present, being emotionally intact to hear what’s going to create the most successful position in your

 

Dr. Liz: Right

 

Nancy: person in your company.

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Nancy: Pulling out all of their strengths, empowering them, it doesn’t come with titles, it doesn’t come with pay, it comes with uh really recognizing what that person needs to succeed. Um, one of the best quotes that I was ever given from a mentor of mine said ‘you will only succeed as far as your manager wants you to’

 

Devon: Mmm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: That’s good

 

Nancy: And I have lived my whole career recognizing with a short period of time, months maybe years later, something the dynamics changed, and I thought ‘I’m not gonna succeed here’ I need to recognize that because my leader, my manager, does not have that as their goal or their mission

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah

 

Nancy: or, you know whatever for me. So to recognize, bottom up

 

Devon: Mmm hmm

 

Nancy: Is so critical too, to be able to have those conversations say ‘what happened? You know

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Nancy: We were working so well together, great mentorship and then something switched, what’s going on?

 

Devon: There was a disconnect, yeah.

 

Nancy: Yeah,

 

Devon: Awesome.

 

Nancy: communication.

 

Dr. Liz: Well and I would

 

Devon: Dr. Liz how about you?

 

Dr. Liz: I would agree with, uh it’s hard to pick one. Um, I think being able to empower people which includes the listening piece, it includes finding out what their strengths are, surrounding you with a team that are working in their strengths, at least 80% of the time, I mean obviously every job you have to do things you don’t love, but

 

Devon: What?

 

*laughter*

 

Dr. Liz: But hopefully it’s not a huge percentage of that time right? *laughter* There’s just a few things, and then I just think passion, I mean I have been around leaders who had no passion and I didn’t want to do anything for them, and I think it gets kind of,

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Dr. Liz: to circle back to the beginning of our conversation, I think people who have great influence have great passion,

 

Devon: Mmm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: And it may be the wrong kind and it may be selfish and it may be whatever, but they are able to get people on board and emotionally

 

Devon: They invoke emotion.

 

Dr. Liz: Yeah, and I think that’s really what adds kind of the fuel to organizations moving forward is that passion and mission and when people know that they’re a sincerely important part of that, I think that’s really what helps build their social capital.

 

Devon: I think for those that have companies or are starting companies, the important key and fundamental key to leadership is recognizing, A) your strengths. So let’s say you’re starting a company and or you have started a company. First, who are you? And what do you know about yourself that is great? And what’s your skill set that is great? And how do you combine those things?

 

Nancy: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: Don’t put yourself in a CEO position if you do not have CEO characteristics just because you started the company doesn’t make you the CEO.

 

Dr. Liz: Ooo that’s a good point.

 

Devon: Right?

 

Dr. Liz: Cuz that’s tough in startups, wow.

 

Devon: It’s terrible. Now there’s one job as a CEO when you do find that right fit as a CEO, is to do nothing but hire a talent and that comes directly from people who do this on a daily basis. Again, JP’s come up a lot here because he’s an exceptional leader extractor. He finds leadership in this world and puts them in that position and it’s and puts them in the right position. And his whole, his only advice to a CEO is ‘you must be great at surrounding yourself with A-level players that match what is most important to the entity itself and that is established, value systems.

 

Nancy: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: If we know what we stand for as a company, not always what I stand for necessarily as an individual, but what this company stands for. The why, as Simon Synec would put it, the value structure of who we attract and who needs to come into this organization and what we go out into the world and really accomplish. When we establish those pillars of values, then our job is to a- hire A-level talent with diverse thinking

 

Nancy: Mm hmm

 

Dr. Liz: Mm hmm

 

Devon: but same value system as the company itself.

 

Nancy: Mm hmm.

 

Devon: And when you do that you create an environment that makes it natural for leadership to thrive because you’ll see those people who have those leadership skills thriving in that environment and then you know that that is the person that needs to lead because they start doing it anyways. Whether you put them in that position or not. I appreciate you guys for your time and stay tuned for our other conversations around social capital integration and many many topics that’ll advance your company. This is a topic and conversations not just for you that are leading companies but it’s for everybody that would be in your organization. To understand how do we work together and really take that next leap in terms of transformation internally and externally in this amazing world of ours. I appreciate you guys for staying tuned in, stay um attached to all of our social media and everything else that’s out there. Take care guys.

 

 

SoCap talks with Devon, Dr. Liz and Nancy

SoCap co-founder and chief visionary officer Devon Kerns sits down with two 20-year veterans of the human resources field to discuss the misconceptions, the challenges, and the promise of millennials in the workplace.

Nancy Holmes (PHR, CCP) of Newman Holmes Consulting, LLC, and Dr. Liz Selzer, founder and CEO of VP Mentoring Initiatives, talk to Devon about some of the myths surrounding millennials, who now make up 35% of the workforce. Both agree that the biggest myth is that somehow all millennials are interchangeable, want the same things, act the same way, have the same work ethic, etc. Putting all millennials in a box is perhaps the most damaging approach employers can when recruiting, managing, developing, and engaging with millennials.

To date, companies have struggled to engage with and retain millennials, whose average tenure is just 2.5 years. This turnover comes at a high price for employers, who must spend more time, energy, and resources to constantly find replacements, train them,and  bring them up to speed, only to start the process all over again in a couple of years. Both Dr. Liz and Nancy advise establishing a culture of open communication, in which expectations are clear, leadership skills are fostered, and work is meaningful.

 

 

> View the Transcription Here <

 

 

Welcome back to SoCap Talks, helping innovators build tomorrow, today. Now here’s your hosts, Devon Kerns and Eric Sutfin.

 

Devon: Welcome back to SoCap Talks, this is Devon Kerns and we are here on the Social Capital Integration Series, and I’m here with Dr. Liz and Nancy. How are you guys doing?

 

Liz and Nancy: Good, very good.

 

Devon: Awesome, awesome. So, a little background on all of us, I’ve got 20 years in leadership development, sales training, and really on the um, branding side of how do you go and recruit and how do you pull people into your company, and Dr. Liz tell us a little bit about yourself.

 

Liz: Well, I’ve got about, well over 20 years of experience working with mentoring initiatives and leadership development initiatives across a number of different kinds of industries, and also around the world. I’ve actually done that on 6 continents so, um, it’s been a great 20 years.

 

Devon: Awesome, and Nancy, tell us about you.

 

Nancy: I’ve got about 20 years experience as well, uh primarily in a corporate environment of human resources. Anything from, uh benefits manager, compensation analyst, uh business partners, and now um really cater to taking the pain out of the process for small business owners. So, whether it’s helping them from their day to day, getting some structure and implementing, um, all the different things to help make them more efficient to those occasional problem employees.

 

Devon: Awesome

 

Liz: *laughing* occasional

 

*laughter*

 

Nancy: Once in a while, yeah.

 

Devon: So glad to be sitting here with you guys and everybody else that’s tuning in, thank you for tuning in. Let’s get to today’s topic. So, Dr. Liz, I know you’ve been focusing in on a couple articles over the last couple weeks, what is today’s topic.

 

Liz: Well so today’s topic we just wanted to look at the millennials, and uh, you know it seems like every time I go to a conference, that’s what everyone is talking about. What do we do with the millennials? How do we work with the millennials? How do we make them successful? How do we put up with them? I mean, whatever it is, I mean it goes anywhere from being super negative to just trying to figure out how to figure out the problem. So um, I think that would be a good thing for us to talk about.

 

Devon: The millennials and the title of your article is what?

 

Liz: Um, ‘Debunking the Millennial Mill-ays”

 

*Laughter*

 

Devon: Mill-ays, I don’t know that I’ve ever heard that word before.

 

*laughter*

 

Devon: It just reminds me of mayonnaise.

 

Liz: *laughing* yeah

 

*more laughter*

 

Devon: *inaudible murmur* …quite visual here. Um, so in the news what, what kind of things have you seen out there, Nancy, around millennials or conversations in terms of HR? I know HR’s always a fun topic, and we were actually sitting here a few minutes ago before going live um, and you brought up something really interesting about the potential sensitivity in the HR world. With not just millennials but conversations that are taking place across the board today.

 

Nancy: Absolutely. So, my take on a, on what I’ve seen and and some of the clients that I’ve been working with is such a sense of um, a desire and a need to be recognized as a professional. Uh, to feel like they are making an impact verses coming to work, getting that paycheck, and not having an intimate passion about what they’re doing. They strive to have additional leadership training, learning, you know whether it’s on the leadership side or technical side, but just to, um really become more of an impact um in their day to day jobs. Part of that too, though can raise um some levels of sensitivity when it comes to an atmosphere, a work atmosphere, that may be very casual, very laid back, um may have a keg in the break room, or

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Nancy: Allow people to work from home and then feel like it’s being abused. Anyway, point being is that having some sensitivity from, uh CEOs, business owners, managers, on how they address different topics. With that being said, how uh that can be perceived um, as being inappropriate. An example I gave prior to going on live was um, had a CEO mention to one of his employees on the way out of a weekly staff meeting that her spray tan, made some reference comment about her spray tan. And, she

 

Liz: Was it orange?

 

Nancy: Felt very uh, didn’t elaborate on the color or anything but just enough for it to make her feel very uncomfortable. So she brought it to my attention as well as her manager and the director of operations.

 

Devon: So she brought it to HR.

 

Nancy: She brought it to HR’s attention and my goal was to help empower her to feel more comfortable to say ‘hey,’ you know, ‘I know you made this comment, may not have meant anything by it but given the prior conversations, I’m not feeling that comfortable and going forward I appreciate if you would not comment on my physical appearance.’ She did not feel comfortable doing this because she’s an employee having to tell the CEO ‘I’m not comfortable with what you just said.’ So, it really creates a I think a tough dynamic when you do have somebody having to tell their superiors that something’s uncomfortable or inappropriate, um so we’re in a really strange place right now, especially with the Harvey Weinstein, um, scandal. Women are wanting to speak out more and more and you’re also realizing how much um, inappropriate, pervasive, issue this really is.

 

Devon: So how do you, I I mean *clears throat* we kind of got fired up around this topic and I feel like you need to be comfortable in your own orange skin. *laughter* If you’re gonna be orange, right?

 

Nancy: Yes.

 

Devon: And so, for me like, I would want to know if I was orange,

 

Nancy: Yeah.

 

Devon: and is it really how it’s brought up, or is it more so the fact that you just can’t bring it up?

 

Nancy: Right, right. Well and I think bottom line is is making comments about personal appearance that really have no impact on the business. If she is good in her orange skin or maybe she’s not, and that’s why this comment was especially uncomfortable for her, um, probably I think it, we’re moving more and more towards whether it’s PC or just being respectful is not to take issue or take note of your employees appearance as much as take note of their work. That’s what’s driving them, is to feel like they’re doing uh a good job; that they’re hitting the mark. They want that feedback. Not necessarily they want a trophy or star for every time they complete a, you know small task, which I

 

Devon: Although they do.

 

Nancy: Think is a myth. Yeah, but they want to know am I on target? Am I doing what I’m supposed to be doing? Um,

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Nancy: Am I meeting the mark? Where is the mark, you know? If I’m supposed to jump so high where’s, where’s that bar?

 

Devon: Right.

 

Liz: And I think effective feedback is something that we all need and we should all be able to give and receive well. I know millennials want it more often. Can be shorter um, you know but they don’t want to wait for that, at the end of the year, that one review that

 

Nancy: Right.

 

Liz: they get. Um, but, I think that uh it’s important to remember that they, they while they want that feedback, they really, they don’t take it well. I mean, I don’t know, I I’ve had they they seem super sensitive, they I, a lot of the complaints that I’ve heard is that they do complain too much. That they you know they feel, they they request things you know, that are just unreasonable because they’ve been given so much over all the years and they had that helicopter parenting happening and uh, I-I think we, we do them a better a a great service if we can give them feedback from the right motivation of trying to help them grow in their leadership and develop them personally and professionally.

 

Nancy: Well and I’m gonna debunk something right there because um, my take is that you can’t put them all into one bucket.

 

Liz: I agree.

 

Nancy: I had, I’ve seen the extreme millennial who when her manager said, you know what working from 8 to 4 every day is, is not cutting it; I need you to put in 8 hours of work, if not more, based on our business needs and she reacted with well if you wanna pay for my subsidize my car because I’m carpooling right now, you wanna pay for my dog walker, $50 a day, then I could put in more time. She was on one end of the extreme as I’ve seen other millennials who work hard,

 

Liz: Really hard.

 

Nancy: Are driving, you know driving crappy cars because they want to, they don’t care, it’s they don’t care about the material things in life. They’d rather drive that crappy car so that they can travel and experience more in life rather than collect stuff.

 

Devon: Mm hmm

 

Nancy: So, um, I do think it’s really important and I hesitate to even refer to millennials but, some millennials because there’s some generation Xer’s or baby boomers that don’t fit that, that label. One size does not fit all.

 

Liz: I I do agree with you on that and I hate you know when you when you grab an entire generation and make snap judgements about them, it I think it does everyone a disservice but, I do think that there are some trends that we can understand about millennials, things that are important to them, I-I know you mentioned the leadership development piece is important, I also know social issues are very important, I mean they will go to an organization that’s a green organization over one that isn’t and regardless of salary, I mean not that salary doesn’t matter, but it’s not the most important driving force. Neither is, you know, titles. Titles and those kind of things. So I think if we understand some of those things that are motivating,

 

Nancy: Absolutely.

 

Liz: That’s, that’s a good positive thing. But one of the things that, um I wrote about in my article is I don’t even think it’s the differences that are the most important thing. I actually think it’s more important to concentrate on the things we have in common and build from there. And there are a lot of things that we have in common as human beings.

 

Devon: One of the things that I um so the last couple weeks we’ve had the fortunate um, experience to speak in front of of a realtor’s association about millennials, and then we just sat down speaking with the uh, Big Brother Big Sister organization talking about millennials, and  *clears throat* it’s so interesting how we do have this title and all of a sudden this title of millennial means something to people that aren’t millennials.

 

Nancy and Liz: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: But to a millennial, it literally means nothing.

 

*laughter*

 

Devon: They’re like, ‘I’m a person wandering around trying to figure out this shit just like you are,’ right, and I do find it really interesting as I reflect on looking at human behavior and sitting down with my grandparents and sitting down with my great grandparents a long time ago and I’m auditory, so I’m kind of like a human recorder for the most part. I don’t always recall well but when it comes up in topic, I recall it quickly. And one of the things I recall is year after year after year after year the older generations, even before I was born, complained about how the next generation’s gonna really screw this up, right?

 

Liz: Yep.

 

Devon: Now, I find that to be one of those topics that you’re talking about where, we’re human and that is a human thing, unfortunately for adults to do as we move in to 35 plus or 40 plus and especially when we start, no offense everybody on the uh listening to this, but you reach the 60 plus mark you’re pretty much dead set in your ways. Yeah, right, you’ve figured out your value systems, you’ve been there, you’ve done that, you’ve got your story and now when you look at the rest of the world everyone else is doing it wrong. *laughter* And, um I think for the most part that’s completely, uh we all know that that’s wrong.

 

Nancy: Yeah.

 

Devon: To, to put an entire generation into a box. Now there are things that I find really interesting. This is, because of the information age and because of technology, a time period where we have taken a giant leap, and that leap because of technology is really around information and digested information.

 

Liz and Nancy: Mmm hmm, mm hmm.

 

Devon: And being in the information age where millennials, in particular, have more information coming to them on a daily basis than our grandparents did in a lifetime, that is an incredible amount of information. Not just information that they can go and find at a nanosecond, but now you’re talking about ads and the bombardment of opinions and thoughts and theories, and it stirs up this chaos where now, a part of what would be perceived as one of the myths of them being lazy, I don’t think it’s laziness. I think it’s a total disconnect from an intent, from ‘what is my purpose’ because I’ve got one friend over here who’s making $50,000 a month from YouTube videos because he’s a, being a jackass and *laughter* running around and jumping off stuff or scaring people with spooky costumes and like, do I do that or do I put on my professional hat and go out here and try and figure out this career thing because it’s what everybody else told me to do? And, and and then there’s a, a giant vast amount of choices in between,

 

Liz: Yeah, absolutely.

 

Devon: As to how they can go out and show up in this world. On top of the fact that you guys were talking about I’ve got a desire, that’s different desires than what my parents did and what my grandparents did. I don’t care about owning a car; I don’t care about owning a house. You told me I should but I’d rather go see the world and experience life because more and more it’s reiterated how short life is.

 

Liz: Well the path just seems so unclear, you know, as I’ve talked with people and the millennial generation you know, thinking about college. Do we do it? That’s another one like you said owning a car and owning a house, is college really the right thing? A good friend of mine, she’s raising her girls to be little entrepreneurs, and they that’s what they do. They already have 2 different businesses that they run as a 10 and 11 year old. And, she said we’re saving money, not for a college fund, but we are saving money, like seed money, for businesses.

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Liz: So I think I agree with you, you know when I grew up, and I will tell you I am a boomer, I’ll admit it. *laughter* I’m actually right on the, I’m right on the line between an Xer and boomer so, I kind of straddle it actually almost.

 

Devon: You’re an X-Boomer *laughter*

 

Liz: Yeah exactly yeah so you know, it was pretty clear what you did. You went, you you know went college and then got your job and you stayed at that job for a long time. I mean that’s what was expected and you found one that had a good retirement uh package which, by the way, no one does anymore

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Liz: But that was what and you you knew you retired and you had your retention and all of this it’s, it’s so different now. And there isn’t a path and I think that is something I know when I have talked with businesses and worked with millennials there, one of the things they really asked for is a career path. Show us and it doesn’t have to be a vertical kind of career path, they just want to make sure that they are developing personally and professionally on a regular basis, and that it means something, that it’s going somewhere.

 

Devon: Yeah.

 

Nancy: Mm hmm mm hmm.

 

Devon: I think that’s right.

 

Nancy: Yeah I couldn’t agree more. I actually have three millennials in my family, and so watching how each of them have navigated, there’s a huge population of, I believe, millennials who are stuck in their careers. They don’t know where they’re going, they don’t know what their passion is. Um, and it almost has them paralyzed as they’re approaching 30 to say ‘what is my career, what am I doing?’ Uh, one of my clients had a employee leave, they tend to bring people in fairly green, with the intent of training them up, but um she ended up leaving social media to go into cosmetology. Total switch,

 

Liz: Wow

 

Nancy: Total different direction but she dabbled in this and it didn’t work out so well so she’s gonna try something different.

 

Devon: Yeah

 

Nancy: So I have to agree I think it was a lot easier, um in generations past where it was somewhat more clear cut that you went to school, you got your piece of paper, you got your degree and then your career started from that point and now it’s, yeah the cost of college is making an impact, the range and the options that are bombarding them of different areas to go in. I’ve got some other friends um, seems to be more on the male side of millennials, that tend to not have that straight line of focus. So

 

Liz: They’re on the yardstick.

 

Nancy: They’re traveling the world. I’ve got a friend who, he finds a job in Australia, works there for 4 months and then decides ‘I’m gonna go to London for another four months there to see if I can get a job.’

 

Liz: But I think it’s tough and maybe this is with the helicopter parenting and everybody gets a medal, what is the yardstick? You know when is it like, when have you really done something of significance and not? And that’s I again another thing I know millennials and actually everyone appreciates at a work environment is to be told what they’re doing matters. And that they are making a difference.

 

Devon: Mmm hmm

 

Nancy: Well and that’s something that I’m working with a client right now on putting together job descriptions, which may seem very archaic and outdated, but they are striving for clarity. They don’t know what is really expected of them. I had one employee say I was, you know ‘here for a month and didn’t feel like I made a difference, I didn’t do a thing because I didn’t know what the acronyms meant, I didn’t know what my job was’, and so now they’re able to go give those to the employees to say this is what you’re going to be measure on at the end of the day, we’ll enhance it with some S.M.A.R.T. goals and things like that, but here’s clarity of what the expectations are that then as they recruit for new employees too there’s not this you know, vanilla explanation of what they’re supposed to do as per say if they have not been in the industry, before.

 

Devon: So you brought up recruiting and that might be the a great transition here into a singular topic that can really help the audience listening particularly those that are in HR or C Suite Levels within companies, *clears throat* one of the struggles that we as the triad doing social capital integration can help companies with is retention.

 

Nancy and Liz: Yes, yes.

 

Devon: Um, and in terms of retention, what we know statistically with millennials is they’ve got to an on average 2 and a half year retention rate. And it’s really interesting because I think we’re all programed for this longevity, but then none of us really enjoy the idea of being stuck in a single place for a long period of time. On every age group.

 

Nancy: Right, yeah.

 

Devon: Right, so um,

 

Nancy: Well and companies don’t employ you for that long anymore. I mean to find,

 

Devon: Right.

 

Nancy: even whatever generation if you’ve been with a company for more than 5 years, I think that’s a great accomplishment. Because so many businesses industries are focused on mortars and acquisitions; you’re constantly bringing people in, at least from my perspective, bringing them all on board, laying off those to give severances and COBRA packages to, only then for a year and a half later, spin it all around and, and send those people on their way.

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Nancy: So, I I think the work environment,

 

Devon: So really it’s about changing the model right?

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: It’s about looking at it and saying ‘expect the turnover,’ if you create a great environment with a great culture and you have a a mission and a purpose within the dynamic of your company that’s clearly expressed, you can retain them for maybe a year to two years longer, stretch it out to four and a half years but once you do,

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm

 

Devon: If you don’t expect them to turnover and you’ve got a model that’s built for longevity of sticking around, but yet they’re only staying for two and a half to four and a half years,

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm

 

Devon: That’s where the disconnect is, so how can how can a company really build an infrastructure where you don’t depend on retention for beyond that three and a half four and a half years, but you create a great environment and through that great environment; how can you prepare your company for that turnover, what can you do to continue to have that next generation of leadership stepping into your company?

 

Liz: And I think it’s it is so important to create that really good culture because when they leave, you want them to speak well of your organization. You know you want them to leave because they’ve outgrown that position. Instead of, ‘I can’t stand the leadership there, I hate the product, I think there’s corruption, it’s unethical,’ all of those things. So I think that’s I’m- I think it’s instead of focusing maybe on retention like you said, it’s focusing on making sure that you’re creating an environment and corporate culture that is ethical, that is a place that people want to be from, proud to be from, proud to say I worked at that company.

 

Nancy: But if you even back it up even further than that to the recruiting process, it’s so critical to make sure that as a company as leaders who are doing the hiring, they need to understand exactly the type of person that they want, so if you’re hiring, you know green employees who have never really worked in say, social media before, you want to train them up your way, that’s awesome. But you need to make sure that through that interviewing process and recruiting process you’re looking at all the behavioral questions to be asking. Technical is one thing, what they’re aptitude is, if they’re willing to learn, they can learn it.

 

Liz: Yeah.

 

Nancy: But if they don’t fit into the personality of that company, they’re gonna get in their for a few months and go ‘what is this?’

 

Devon: I don’t feel like I belong.

 

Nancy: No, I don’t feel like I belong and ‘why is it so loosey-goosey?’ They have a keg in the break room but then you know Megan had one on a Wednesday and oooo big deal, *audible laugh* you know so, you need to, as

 

Devon: She talked about her orange skin and

 

*Audible laugher*

 

Nancy: Oh my gosh it was just a cluster. So I think it is so important as a manager right off the bat to say ‘hey I’m gonna be giving you feedback, and it’s not because I want you to feel bad, but it’s because I want to help you, I want to groom you and help you grow to be as as successful as you can in this company.’

 

Devon: And that needs to be built into the value systems.

 

Nancy: It does.

 

Liz: And into the culture, I mean it it’s that you know weird company that gives feedback on a regular basis,

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Liz: and it’s not just for, you know, certain people here it’s for everybody. It’s that, you know when you, it when it’s really embedded in the entire culture with all the leadership, everyone all the new people coming on then it sticks, and it stays.

 

Nancy: Yeah. It it’s the communication is the key. That’s what I’ve said forever and I’m not the first, but communication from the very get go to outline what those expectations are

 

Devon: Mmm hmm

 

Nancy: and how those honest conversations. But also to build the positives all along the way, not about what they’re wearing or their their tan,

 

Liz: *laughs*

 

Nancy: But you know hey ‘I-I love what you did on this, if I could see just a little bit more of X that would be awesome.’ As long as you’re constantly building up that bank of positive communication, then when something does go sideways and you need to set, take them aside, it’s not so uncomfortable, it’s not like your boss has never been into your office before or and then when they they do come it’s like they’re rubbing their eyebrows and their forehead and stammering trying to figure out how they tell you some what should be very constructive. And that I think is key as training managers an anybody who is going to be giving feedback, how to do it in the most constructive positive easy get in get out laid out quickly, and then be gone. You know, it’s it doesn’t take a 20 minute conversation, you just ‘hey, you know noticed that this was slipping last week, if you could keep an eye on that, that’d be great.’ Done. Don’t bring it up again at another meeting, don’t put it in the performance review, you know unless..

 

Devon: Don’t bring it up publicly in general.

 

Nancy: Or publicly announce ‘hey what happened over here’ you know it’s some of it is just common sense.

 

Devon: Remember that time Nancy when you were a total jackass? *laughter* oh sorry Dr. Liz I didn’t pay attention to the fact that you were here. *laughter*

 

Nancy: Yeah well I’m just kidding, you know I see that kind of communication going on too and I’m like, that is the most passive aggressive thing you can say you know?

 

Devon: Ah man, no I I don’t wanna go down that path cuz I-I am that person where I’m sensitive to the idea that if I know it’s something that needs to be fixed, I won’t bring it up in public. I’ll pull you aside. But at the same time, there is something to be said about accountability amongst peers.

 

Liz: Yeah.

 

Devon: Right so if I’m in a boardroom with board members and something went awry, it’s okay to have a real conversation within that dynamic.

 

Liz: Yes.

 

Devon: Not for the sake of getting it validated,

 

Liz: Yeah.

 

Devon: but for the sake of accountability.

 

Liz: Yeah.

 

Devon: However, when you are in an authority within the dynamic a manager, C Suite person and you have, um one of your um, managers from the call center, manager from the sales group and you’re in a conversation about sales and then you call them out as the CEO, man it, it never goes well.

 

Nancy: Yeah and well that’s what um this scenario that I worked through this past week was, because of the dynamics, had it been a coworker, and she answered, I would’ve been totally comfortable saying ‘hey I’m not comfortable with you making comments about my appearance,’ but this is her CEO. Totally different dynamic as it is for me with HR. There’s been times where I can be a little bit more casual in how I discuss something, and you can just see it on, you know, as soon as I say it there, they freeze. I think it’s more so because it’s coming from HR so I have to be very sensitive of the fact of my position, and what that can implicate for them down the road. So..

 

Devon: So going back to retention, we tend to keep going down the orange skin path *laughter* which I’ll take blame for that, um, it was interesting when I was working with this incredible organization and man, what a great mission that uh the Big Brother Big Sisters organization has in terms of mentorship and bigs working with littles. It’s really interesting because uh, 70% of the people working within the staff of this organization are millennials. So millennials are clearly driven to mission driven entities and a within that dynamic you have um, ss uh I forget exactly what the stat is but a large number of, uh the bigs, the mentors, working with these kids um are millennials, and so not only working and getting a paycheck but volunteering to work with these, uh, these up and coming, um amazing kids that have unfortunately been through circumstances where you know, life has been hard for them and they get this mentor in their life and somebody that’s passionate about making the change however, what we found was in this ADD world that we live in and what the conversation a part of the dialogue was not just retention around, uh staff. But it was retention around volunteers.

 

Liz: Mmm.

 

Devon: And it was really tough for them because you’re, you’re one you’re volunteering, right so at the end of the day, if a paycheck supersedes volunteering, paycheck’s gonna win.

 

Liz: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: But two, um a 90 day window is what we started having the conversation around with the volunteer because they feel like if I don’t see an impact in this kids life, I kinda give up.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: And so there is this um, dilemma that I think is happening across the board in nonprofits. Where, how do I retain volunteers and how do I retain donors as well. And so it seems as though retention is not just an inside dynamic.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: One of the biggest things going back to your point around it’s gotta come from the value system and the culture of a company and the culture not being a keg or scooters.

 

Liz: Right. That is not culture.

 

Devon: Yeah, that’s things that create a cool environment that is not culture right. So value systems, and I looked at the, the mission which is super powerful and then I looked at the vision. And the vision, again this isn’t knocking it but it’s going one level deeper as we started having this conversation, and with this group uh the staff and the board members, and the vision was, basically we strive to um create success for children. And I went, well could that be, could that vision be hindering the id- the retention of the mentors..

 

Liz: Mmm.

 

Devon: when they aren’t included in the vision of the company.

 

Liz: Mmm hmm

 

Devon: And what you really wanting is the mentor, to be re- to latch onto the success of the kid. Therefore is your focus on the children? Or should your focus be the success of a mentor leads to the success of a kid?

 

Liz: Right.

 

Devon: And so if you set up the environment differently, really focusing on who you need to be working with, who you need to be developing. Right if I’m a 25 year old mentor and I want to mentor this kid, is all the focus on the kid? Or should an organization with baby boomers and everybody else be focusing on how do we develop that 25 year old so the 25 year old is developing the 9 year old?

 

Nancy: Right.

 

Devon: And it’s not built into the mission and that’s a top down issue where, we’re not really understanding the archetype of what we want to attract.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: And we’re not understanding the archetype internally for our staffing, we’re not understanding the archetype in terms of our, um uh mentors and we’re not understanding the archetype of a donor and when I said, can you tell me who these people are that are mentors.

 

Nancy: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: Man, it kind of erupted in in multiple different directions where it wasn’t clear, who this person is and there’s a fear, particularly in the nonprofit world that I’ve seen on a consistent basis within these organizations, if I choose an archetype as an example, then I’m leaving out a whole bunch of money and a whole bunch of donors and a whole bunch of mentors because I’m too focused on a specific. And, it is such a backwards thinking. To me that shows a fear of losing out instead of if I just had focus, I could be abundant or I could attract A-level talent or I could attract incredible clients or incredible people and customers. If I’m clear on who the buyer is, if I’m clear on who the mentor is, if I’m clear on who the um, managers are in my company and why they’re attracted and what about our company are those value systems that pulled them in the door here, why did they choose us over someone else?

 

Liz: Mmm hmm.

 

Devon: And I think there’s a total disconnect there in for profit entities where of course you’re gonna work for us cus we can pay you a paycheck.

 

Liz: Right. I-

 

Devon: Not today with millennials.

 

Liz: So I wanna give an example, I used to work for a nonprofit that helped um, moms become better moms, I mean it was kind of a support thing for that, and we had 30,000 volunteers around the country that uh we obviously wanted to retain. And they largely, actually were millennials believe it or not, cuz they had you in order to be a volunteer you had to be a a mother of a preschooler. So, in essence a lot of them were pretty young. And they had a really hard time keeping volunteers, and they couldn’t figure out what exactly was going on but I think it totally speaks on what you’re saying, we started a leadership development program for these volunteers…

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Liz: And we really prepared them, I mean we had all kinds of uh categories of things we prepared them for so that they felt like we were really feeding into them and they felt like they when they left, we actually started getting the reputation ‘oh boy, they’ve worked for that company? They’re a good leader.’

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Liz: Like they end up going into leadership in their communities and all of that because they know they got actually legit leadership development training as volunteers, that was part of it we valued those volunteers kind of in a different way. So, I think it does work, I think what you’re saying is very wise. *laughter*

 

Devon: Well, it’s been a while since I’ve been called wise *laughter* thank you. Um, so in wrapping this up I’d love to get one clear point from you, Nancy, as to how, from your perspective, how can a company from an HR perspective really help retain for a longer period of time but prepare for not um, expecting the 25 year employee but what can they do to really be prepared from an HR side of things for retaining a little bit longer, engaging a little bit longer, and then preparing for them to leave.

 

Nancy: Yeah. I think it all boils down to communication. From the moment you interview that individual, making sure that they have the same type of expectations in terms of what they’re work-style looks like and what your company has to offer. If you want somebody who’s going to be there a certain period of time each day, you need to communicate that right up front. They may be thinking ‘oh well if I take off for a couple hours, go for a bike ride, you know I’m a big cyclist living in Boulder, rock-climbing,’ whatever, but then they’ll come back and be there, you know whether it’s at the office or at home til 8 o’clock at night. Either way, you’ve got to set those expectations up, up front. The communication in terms of how to give that constructive feedback, this is why I’m gonna give you feedback is because I want you to grow and develop, and these first few months of being on board is critical for you to feel engaged. So, for me it’s all about communication.

 

Devon: So, take the time to be clear and then get it in writing so that it’s precise, clear, communicated well and in writing…

 

Nancy: Absolutely.

 

Devon: As to the expectation of that person within the entity.

 

Nancy: Yeah, have a client right now and their employee handbook is completely contradictory to what they’re doing everyday *laughter* on the job.

 

Devon: Awesome.

 

Nancy: So, no wonder there’s confusion…

 

Liz: No.

 

Nancy: And clarity and ‘can I take time off for the holidays? I don’t know. It’s coming up and need to make my air travel so again,’ to me it all comes down to having that constructive and also sensitive. Recognizing when is it appropriate for me to address your attire, if you’re going out to see clients and it may not be a what you feel is a good representation of your company, um, verses what they’re wearing in the office and does that make an impact is it distracting to other employees? Learning really simple communication style to address uncomfortable situations is critical.

 

Devon: Awesome. How about you Dr. Liz what’s the one thing from the human capital side and leadership development side of things?

 

Liz: I think, and I I don’t know that I even really mentioned it yet but I think one of the things, especially related to millennials, and it’s something that is important to them is developing everyone. You know instead of having these mentoring and leadership development programs for high potentials, that everyone is worthy of being a part of a leadership development, personal, professional development um initiative and learning and making sure that, that that’s happening at all levels of the organization because that ties them into your organization. That really is a culture piece.

 

Devon: Mmm hmm.

 

Liz: To me that’s how you that’s how culture good culture sticks. Is when you go ‘wow I know this company cares about me and what I am doing for this company because they’re feeding into me that way.’

 

Devon: And beyond the company. Develop them as leaders beyond your company, and some will stay and take over…

 

Liz: Mmm hmm, yep.

 

Devon: And blow your mind and others will leave and you get to be proud of their accomplishments. Because you were a part of their growth instead of the opposite which you see in companies and that is ‘well I can’t have you outgrow me because then you’re gonna take my position’. That fear, paralyzes an entire organization…

 

Liz: Yes

 

Devon: And it starts from the top.

 

Liz: Yep.

 

Devon: That’s awesome. Well I appreciate you guys so much and uh thank you for tuning in and listening in. Stay tuned for our future uh, chats around social capital integration and remember, for those of you that are out there with orange skin *laughter* get comfortable in your orange skin.